Vinyl grading guideline for sellers (MUST READ!)

Apparently a lot of sellers are having a hard time grading vinyl records correctly. It's actually not as hard as it looks, but to save some time, I outlined the general guidelines in a handy flow chart, of course starting from the bottom (not the top!):

Is it cracked or heavily warped?
Yes -> "Poor" (0% value)
No -> ...

Does it skip?
Yes -> "Fair" (5% value - Note: Fair is not NM contrary to popular belief!)
No -> ...

Does surface noise overpower music?
Yes -> "Good" (10-15% value)
No -> ...

Are there scratches deep enough to feel with a fingernail?
Yes -> "Very Good" (25% value)
No -> ...

Are there any signs of wear and previous handling?
Yes -> "Very Good Plus" (50% value)
No ->

Is it sealed?
Yes -> "Mint"
No -> "Near Mint"

Edit: "sealed" in this context serves primarily to illustrate how to tell NM from M.

From the Goldmine record grading method:

Near Mint: Basically, an LP in near mint condition looks as if you just got it home from a new record store and removed the shrink wrap.
Mint: Certainly never been played, possibly even still sealed. Should be used sparingly as a grade, If at all.

Looks good to me.

Now for the difficult part:
How to make sellers read it before they list an item for sale?

Agreed. Looks good. Except, get rid of percentage values. That is neither here or there and should be decided by the seller.

Also. Try to get buyers to NOT expect a VG+ record for a G/G+ or to assume that a seller grading as such is undergrading.

8892sales
Try to get buyers to NOT expect a VG+ record for a G/G+ or to assume that a seller grading as such is undergrading.

Very good point.
Although personally I didn't have any such issues with buyers yet in all those years selling online. The reason might be that if a record is beaten up, usually I'd also unambiguously describe the nature of the defect in the item description.

The main problem is....

The sellers that read & frequent this forum are all well known for their accurate grading & impeccable customer service.

Unfortunately, the sellers that your post should be directed at, will more than likely not see it here ;)

Is it sealed?
Yes -> "Mint" .. or possibly "Poor" and cracked in half... who knows.....

this is why we need a "Still Sealed" option in the drop down. It eliminates any guesswork... and also allows buyers to filter their search results for sealed items too...

dansauk
Is it sealed?
Yes -> "Mint" .. or possibly "Poor" and cracked in half... who knows.....

this is why we need a "Still Sealed" option in the drop down.

If it's sealed at least you should assume that it's mint. I doubt many sellers would care to send it if they are fully aware that it's broken. They may be forced to pay a full refund and lose shipping costs and discogs fee.

Of course they would not be aware it's broken if it's sealed. So yes, you could assume it's mint, but you should not assume anything... and any good seller would accept return / refund for a sealed item that was found to be defective

I got a sealed Album with a seam split (ok, that's easy to see).
I got a sealed Album where the Label was (glued) completely out of the Center (this i had to give back/exchange).

And i sold a sealed item where there appeared that the inner sleeves (some Kind of Special inners) had seam splits. This was tricky...but i could solve it with the buyer.

I've seen sealed items that are cracked.
I've seen sealed items that have been pressed off centre, with some of the groove missing from a lot of one edge (and two centre holes!)
I've seen sealed items where the vinyl is not the correct vinyl for the sleeve.

In fact I've seen more problems with sealed items, than I've seen with un-sealed items :)

dansauk
In fact I've seen more problems with sealed items, than I've seen with un-sealed items :)

That's because they were unseen!
This grading issue has been going on with mail order records for getting on for a hundred years so it ain't going to stop any time soon. Absolutely nothing new unfortunately...

dansauk
this is why we need a "Still Sealed" option in the drop down. It eliminates any guesswork... and also allows buyers to filter their search results for sealed items too...

Last time I brought it up, I was unable to convince thread commenters that it wasn't going to be abused by resealers :/

dansauk
I've seen sealed items that are cracked.
I've seen sealed items that have been pressed off centre, with some of the groove missing from a lot of one edge (and two centre holes!)
I've seen sealed items where the vinyl is not the correct vinyl for the sleeve.

A few years ago I bought a sealed item that was so heatwarped it barely had any visible grooves left.

odyssey5
(0% value)

and rare item may be 500% value

dansauk
In fact I've seen more problems with sealed items, than I've seen with un-sealed items :)

I maintain my belief that a sealed record is in a quantum grade of both mint and poor until directly observed.

Mint means "perfect", better than regular new. I'll use it with new CDs but with records it's just better completely avoided unless you are sure.

I think you should create a separate thread where you can discuss all the possibilities with sealed items. It's completely off topic in this thread. If a record is sealed you would have to at least *assume* that it's mint. That's the grading I have seen LEAST abused in the marketplace!

9228289
and rare item may be 500% value

500% of 0% is still 0%. Even a rare item is not very useful (and thus worth anything) if it's broken.

The percentages are guidelines, and even they are often abused by sellers. That's why they are in the goldmine standard, and why I'm keeping them in my post.

dansauk
In fact I've seen more problems with sealed items, than I've seen with un-sealed items :)

That sounds highly unlikely...

i personally use the GM percentages unless i'm the only seller or it's an über rare item. i may have "lost" a few bucks but it allows me quicker sales. and it's a definite advantage over many discogs sellers.

odyssey5
If a record is sealed you would have to at least *assume* that it's mint.

quite simply...
NO, until you can visually see the item is in Mint condition
assuming for the best is just a view based on optimism
not FACT,
if you were right then if i sold you a sealed item as Mint
and you then claimed it was not Mint, i then could "assume" your claim was a lie
as assuming a sealed item is mint is correct according to your interpretation
that i have quoted above?
very fuzzy logic indeed hmm..

odyssey5
If a record is sealed you would have to at least *assume* that it's mint.

No, you don't have to assume that. Indeed the Goldmine grading standard advises against using the Mint grade at all.

And it is totally relevant; you brought up sealed items for one thing, Not that you get to dictate where a thread goes anyway.

Diognes_The_Fox
Last time I brought it up, I was unable to convince thread commenters that it wasn't going to be abused by resealers :/

That remains a valid point.
But than again, many sellers are probably even selling resealed item in good faith, having them already received (re)sealed without knowing it.

Therefore:

Diognes_The_Fox
I maintain my belief that a sealed record is in a quantum grade of both mint and poor until directly observed.

Absolutely.

And that's exactly why a (Still) Sealed grade is needed.

Just to put the cat among the pigeons IMHO the UK Record Collector grading system offers a much tighter description than the US Goldmine one used here. Personally I found on my few buying escapades here that the latitude between VG+ and NM is too great.
The RC grade 'excellent' is very useful and one I use on 90% of my stock. RC 'very good' means basically marked but plays where-as VG+ here means something completely different with a wide gap between VG+ and NM - where an EX would fit in nicely.
Of course if you're a crap grader it won't mean a thing what-ever system you use.

Yet again (groan, sigh), Sealed denotes nothing other than heat sealed in a clear poly-something film some unknown time after being manufactured & inserted into sleeve by unknown people. Schrödinger's Mint. A "Sealed" grade is a resealer's charter.

odyssey5
Are there scratches deep enough to feel with a fingernail?
Yes -> "Very Good" (25% value)
No -> ...

I chew my nails, how do I grade VG? ;-)

Reggae-reggae-reggae
EX would fit in nicely.

A totally new grading system is needed to replace both Goldmine & RC, both of which were basically based on Shellac grading where "good" was good for Shellac, but is akin to frying bacon for vinyl.

Mint
Near-Mint
Excellent
Good
Fair
Poor
Jamaican Reggae 7"s
Broken
Accidental Mars Bar Ingredients
Liquid
Gas
Plasma
etc.

You'd still get online sellers grading a melted pool of vinyl as Mint as long as it was sealed inside a plastic bag.

Sealed = Mint ?

The word ASSUMED springs to mind.

Until open and examined , how does any seller / buyer know for sure ?

dansauk
The main problem is....

The sellers that read & frequent this forum are all well known for their accurate grading & impeccable customer service.

Unfortunately, the sellers that your post should be directed at, will more than likely not see it here ;)

1+....and a problem will also be: We can change the general guidelines for grading- but it does not mean that sellers will grade better. I would not have a problem with a new/maybe a better grading system...but i think it will not help people to grade better....

ananda2000
..but i think it will not help people to grade better....

but a grading "" score would help :)

The "mint" vinyl discussion is too crazy/strange for me. Should sellers be someone like a medium...a person who can "feel" how a sealed vinyl looks?? How should we grade a sealed vinyl..very good or what. I will ever grade it mint....and if its not mint, i will give full refund.

dansauk
ananda2000
..but i think it will not help people to grade better....

but a grading "" score would help :)

This is a good idea....help buyers to see where to buy from,right?

AmazingDiscoveries
And it is totally relevant; you brought up sealed items for one thing, Not that you get to dictate where a thread goes anyway.

1+...we talk about grading...so this is relevant! Huhu

I'll say this much: after receiving yet another item that was graded as NM and was VG at best, I think some sort of seller education is required.

dansauk
ananda2000..but i think it will not help people to grade better....

but a grading "" score would help :)

I will consequently give a negative , if the seller is obviously misgrading. It will most likely backfire on my own , but so be it. I have a few sales pending, but I'm giving the seller a chance to make up for it.

ananda2000
we talk about grading...so this is relevant! Huhu

I made this flow chart because I recon there's a serious problem. I have never (yet) experienced problems with items listed as Mint. Most of these sellers are professional sellers which also state in the comments that it's new and sealed. Listing a new and sealed item as Poor wouldn't really make sense anyway. As someone stated; sellers will almost always take it back if there's a problem anyway.

I made this because there is a serious problem with sellers selling items that should be graded Fair, listed as NM. I have experienced this several times now. And because following the goldmine standard is not rocket science.

Many sellers won't grade below VG+. It's like they don't know how to, or don't care to bother with it. You can often see that a seller would have more NM items than VG+, and nothing below it.

I like the way that works odyssey5 - a little tweaking and a nice flow chart graphic design and you could be onto a winner :)

odyssey5
Many sellers won't grade below VG+

Their bad.
Just today I shipped an in-demand LP that I graded G/G+ (although I think that regarding the sleeve I could have gotten away with a VG as well), listed only a couple of weeks ago.
Mind you, I have accepted an offer of $6 (listed for $8) while the next cheapest copy is available for $25, graded VG+/VG. But $6 is OK, I wasn't expecting to get more than that anyway.

In other words:
If the price is right and the accurate condition is disclosed upfront, you can sell anything in any condition and you'll still make the buyer happy.

loukash: It's certainly not an accusation of anyone, just a simple observation. And it's probably also true that sellers which are active in the forums are more likely to be better graders and sellers. I completely agree with you.

I especially love the direction it flows, from bad to better... by far a better way to grade something than i taught myself, which was from best to worst. I personally would have picked up grading sooner if i had used your approach... although to be fair possibly not as good at apologising or refunding as i am now!

I reckon those new to vinyl would benefit from seeing grades portrayed in this direction, at the very least just by having a better understanding of the lower grades, which are often overlooked.

nerdfly
I especially love the direction it flows, from bad to better

Yep, that's what makes this proposal so substantial.
The actual wording and examples are a secondary problem to solve.
Sequence matters.™

I'm new to all of this, but between this chart and Goldmine's grading descriptions, there definitely seems to be room for some clarity at the upper end.

I agree with the 'sealed' suggestion. Seems that there should be "new/sealed" as an option that's above Mint. I'd then be fine with Mint = unsealed. Maybe played once, and kept impeccable. Then M- = played a handful of times times, but kept impeccable.

DarreLP
Then M- = played a handful of times times, but kept impeccable.

This is exactly what NM is there for.

There is no need to complicate this further. It's really that simple.

"Does it look like it was just taken out of it's shrink wrap?" - Then it's NM.

If there are ANY signs of previous usage, then it's no more than VG+.

YOU DON'T KNOW WHO SEALED IT & WHEN

Sealed is not a grade & never should be.

If anyone else mentions sealed as a grade again, I will come round your house & shrinkwrap everything in it including you, for your protection. ;-)

Only joking (or am I?)

Vinyl.Score
Sealed is not a grade & never should be.

But a sealed item can NOT accurately be given a grade also...

Sealed items are more prone to damage during shipping too, due to not being able to seperate the vinyl from the sleeve and ship it outside the sleeve etc.. etc...

Vinyl.Score
YOU DON'T KNOW WHO SEALED IT & WHEN

And you can never be sure that an item that has been opened is really Mint, even if the seller states it.

Mint as a grading could just as well be removed altogether. It's even stated in the Goldmine guidelines, that it should be used sparingly - if at all.

So, I somewhat agree, but as I stated previously, new and sealed records are rarely a problem. This flow chart is not for the seller, selling new items, but for the one selling used records. The main reason I feel it's necessary to mention if it's sealed or not, is to illustrate that THIS is the absolute only difference between NM and M grading.

Some sellers won't hesitate to call a dusty, fingerprinted or even scratched record for NM, but NM should never be used unless the record truly looks like it was JUST removed from it's shrink wrapping.

dansauk
But a sealed item can NOT accurately be given a grade also...

Sealed items are more prone to damage during shipping too, due to not being able to seperate the vinyl from the sleeve and ship it outside the sleeve etc.. etc...

If only there was a way to remedy that situation...

But no, the new generation of Noobs are obsessed with sealed & will pay substantially more for a sealed item, it's like a fetish, they should just go to Latex Fetish clubs & get a real life. ;-)

Well, I generally un-seal most items to check they are ok, and to record the audio clips ;)

unless it is some uber-rarity that really needs to be kept sealed.. but anything under £20 value will get opened and checked, and audio clipped :)

odyssey5
Are there scratches deep enough to feel with a fingernail?
Yes -> "Very Good" (25% value)
No -> ...

I would never list as VG if that were the case G+ at VERY best. Likely G.

Obvious answer......open any sealed albums and then grade accordingly.
There was a big pile of reggae 12" found in New York some years ago and all sealed. Every single one was warped when opened! Lesson learnt now I always open any sealed stock.

nerdfly
especially love the direction it flows, from bad to better

Yes. That's how all grading systems should work imho.

The only positive thing about a sealed item, is, that whoever's selling it is more than likely assuming good faith. And buyers should also assume that a seller listed and sold an item in good faith aswell. Obviously, if the product is faulty, the seller should still have the decency to refund upon return or work out something with the buyer. A sealed item should not absolve a seller of responsibility.

odyssey5
Some sellers won't hesitate to call a dusty, fingerprinted or even scratched record for NM, but NM

Case in point. I was at a record store in inner London a couple of weeks back. One of the staff showed me a dusty record and said it was mint. It happened to be a used electronic/techno record. He said, if it was a "rock" record, a record collector would classify that as NM/Mint all day long as there were no obvious signs of wear! I really couldn't believe what I was hearing to be honest. Firstly of what I know of rock (especially classic rock) collectors, they are some of the most difficult to please. They would regard what I saw as VG at best. In fact, even under reggae scrutiny lol !

The record imo was perhaps a VG+ at best if it had a deep clean. On close inspection it contained light, but visible marks and light surface noise. Perhaps I was being a little unfair, however, the record was not mint by any stretch of the imagination.

AV-Media
I would never list as VG if that were the case G+ at VERY best. Likely G.

The thing is. Technically a seller's within their rights to list the above description as a VG as it states in the Goldmine. However, I agree, as soon as a mark can be felt, it's listed as G/G+. Conversely though, sometimes records with above faults play less noisily than ones that contain light surface marks :(

I have only sold 2 cd's on discogs, so no problem here.
But I have bought more than 100 items, cd's and vinyl an most have been rather accurate, so all in all I have no complaints.
But isn' t there a couple of issues one might forhet here.
A grading system will never be 100% objective. Off course skips etc are obvious to everyone, but WHO grades and with WHAT equipment.
Personally I only have an old Pioneer PL115D with a standard ADC30 pick-up (which I would guess a lot of people here would call trash). But if I ( as seller) should grade a record played on my equipment and buyer plays it on 10.000£ equipment I could imagine we would have graded different.
Another thing is sich a simple parameter as age. Not the records age, but the listeners.
I am 63 and my, and other people in that age, wouldn't nescecarily hear every little distortion as a teenager.

odyssey5
new and sealed records are rarely a problem

For shops buying from distros this is of course true.

As a descriptive tag, sure. As a grade, no way.

Records very rarely even arrive directly from the plant in M/M condition. My opinion is that should be pretty much never, unless it's an absolutely pristine unusually perfect tip top museum quality condition.

odyssey5
of course starting from the bottom

Good idea, except for

odyssey5
Is it cracked or heavily warped?
Yes -> "Poor" (0% value)
No -> ...

Does it skip?
Yes -> "Fair" (5% value - Note: Fair is not NM contrary to popular belief!)
No -> ...

Because 5% of the pervious value of 0% value is still..... 0%

While grading may be an issue, it isn't for an individual to dictate how sellers price their records and CDs. That is totally up to them. So long as the grading is correct, the price is the seller's decision, not the buyer's.

I'd also be loathe to describe a record with scratches you can actually feel as being "VG". To me that is "Good" at best. Of course grading is subject to opinion, but since I've never had a complaint about my grading either on here or on thousands of ebay sales, I must be doing something right.

MathewD
While grading may be an issue, it isn't for an individual to dictate how sellers price their records and CDs. That is totally up to them. So long as the grading is correct, the price is the seller's decision, not the buyer's

+1

MathewD
it isn't for an individual to dictate how sellers price their records

If the price isn't right for the item, it will not be sold. Percentages are guidelines - I didn't make them up. Go blame the Goldmine standard.

odyssey5
Go blame the Goldmine standard

Yes, I do blame it. It's about time discogs used it's own grading system, voted by us the sellers and buyers. Or tweak it at least. Guidelines were implemented and tweaked specifically for CD's a few years ago. Can't see why gudelines specific to records can't be tweaked. Starting with the Still Sealed option. Getting rid of the price and percentage guideline aswell.

8892sales
Yes, I do blame it. It's about time discogs used it's own grading system, voted by us the sellers and buyers

With all due respect to Goldmine, I think you have a great idea there. This seems to be where people buy vinyl now. Times change. Time to update the standards!

odyssey5
Does it skip?
Yes -> "Fair" (5% value - Note: Fair is not NM contrary to popular belief!)
No -> ...

Does surface noise overpower music?
Yes -> "Good" (10-15% value)
No -> ...

These two points require listening.

The majority of sellers doesn't listen to the stuff they sell.

Discuss.

8892sales
Yes, I do blame it. It's about time discogs used it's own grading system, voted by us the sellers and buyers. Or tweak it at least. Guidelines were implemented and tweaked specifically for CD's a few years ago. Can't see why gudelines specific to records can't be tweaked. Starting with the Still Sealed option. Getting rid of the price and percentage guideline aswell.

Spot on, Goldmine is an outdated 20th Century Scale based on Shellac, but the USA is a very conservative nation which still uses Fahrenheit, Feet & Inches so it's not likely to change anytime soon.