Two Languages on Release - how to add?

Hi @ll,

on e.g. mexican releases you can often find the Songtitles in two languages.
How to add them correctly?

"As on Release" or "as Subtitles in ( )"

Here's an Example

http://discogs.versitio.com/history?release=5432884#latest

http://discogs.versitio.com/forum/thread/52386bf6a86b6d2289df3fe2

Currently pending a statement from the management, but feel free to post more examples + opinions. :-)

teninchfan
Here's an Example

http://discogs.versitio.com/history?release=5432884#latest

apart from your problem, I think we should stop this ( snap07801) to mass edit titles songs. Even on covers, if a band B cover a track called "Calling You" (by band A who call it "Calling You" on his album) and changed it to "Callin' You" on band B's album, he thinks he's right to change "Callin' You" (as on release) to "Calling You" (as on release that contains the original version)

In the example given, I think as-on-release is correct. Should be reverted back to "..."

auboisdormant
Currently pending a statement from the management, but feel free to post more examples + opinions. :-)

Yes, I've added that example to the SR when I explained that that thread was happily resolved for ten months, including the approval of the person driving the backlash against the idea now.

auboisdormant
http://discogs.versitio.com/forum/thread/52386bf6a86b6d2289df3fe2

Currently pending a statement from the management, but feel free to post more examples + opinions. :-)

I actually have a response to that part of my SR from Josh1979 and I am waiting for his permission to quote it since it was send privately. Bottom line: there is no standard. Either way is acceptable.

Eviltoastman
Yes, I've added that example to the SR when I explained that that thread was happily resolved for ten months, including the approval of the person driving the backlash against the idea now.

Are you talking about me? I stated my concern already back then, which was never addressed. And I was never against the idea. Like I said in the other thread, I don't care either way... I just want to be sure that what I'm doing is fine.

Fauni-Gena
Bottom line: there is no standard. Either way is acceptable.

Not a surprising answer I have to it. ;-p

Discogs: 1
Consistency: 0

thanks for the link to the other thread, will see what Management say ;-)

reverted changes now back to "as on release"

auboisdormant
Not a surprising answer I have to it. ;-p

Discogs: 1
Consistency: 0

You know I've argued for consistency as well.

teninchfan
thanks for the link to the other thread, will see what Management say ;-)

reverted changes now back to "as on release"

The response should be interesting, but I expect it will end up being submitter's choice across the board.

I received a definitive response and I have permission to quote if from the SR:

drivebybird
1) If the main title of the release is in two languages-- A: Both languages can definitely be entered, although English should be first.
2) If there is one tracklist (and only one) with two languages: A: Both languages can be entered, again with English being the main language.

...

I did take the discussion up with nik, and he feels that either method can be considered acceptable. Community should use whichever method is clearest for them, or provides a better format for documenting the information. He did mention that in the past, he has used a slash in situations such as this: Charlie-Palmieri-Hay-Que-Estar-En-Algo-Either-You-Have-It-Or-You-Dont

There's not a sense here that it's critical to designate an official method, as that's likely to create a lot of confusion and frustration when encountering older submissions and so on. As it stands, both methods -- parenthesis or slash -- should be considered acceptable, both for submitting and voting.

...

I don't have a problem with you quoting me on this. I'm working with one of our recent staff hires, Kirsten / Weetzie, and Nik as well, to discuss a way to formalize this and update the guidelines -- we should be able to wrap that up in the next couple of days.

The excluded parts mostly involve Josh apologizing for taking so long :) So... there you have it. I need to reverse the title order on some of my submissions that are Hebrew first then English, so I have some work ahead of me.

Fauni-Gena
1) If the main title of the release is in two languages-- A: Both languages can definitely be entered, although English should be first.

Even for the case the foreign language is the "Main"-Language?

Ridiculous. So if something is printed in Russian in a 26-size font, and then you have a tiny English translation size 8 below that, English should go first? How about just make us translate everything even if English isn't on the release anywhere?

EDIT: Removed offensive off-hand comment, sorry.

The first language should be the language of the country the release was released in.

Yukabacera
The first language should be the language of the country the release was released in.

+1

Yukabacera
The first language should be the language of the country the release was released in.

I agree with this in principle, but there are potential complications. First, what if the country has more than one official language? Second, what about export editions? For example, I have a few USSR export releases with Russian and English on them; which should go first?

brunorepublic
First, what if the country has more than one official language?

Use the one that's printed on the release? Sorry if I didn't explain it well. For example, China has many official languages. If something is printed on the release in Chinese and English, use Chinese. If it's a Chinese release printed in Tibetan and English, use Tibetan as the first. Any language that is official in the country of release should take priority over a foreign language.

EDIT: For harder cases, like for example Singapore where English is one of the official languages, the language more prominently printed should take priority. If two or more are printed equally then just use English, I guess.

brunorepublic
For example, I have a few USSR export releases with Russian and English on them; which should go first?

We still file all Soviet export releases under "USSR", therefore Russian or any other language of the USSR.

brunorepublic
I have a few USSR export releases with Russian and English on them; which should go first?

imho the russian

should be as it appears on the release, if the non-English is first, that goes first, that is how it has always been done afaik, I posting about this when I was not so experienced as I had Polish, Russian, Japanes and Spanish releases with both languages titles and track names, you add as on release, as with everything else on discogs.

Fauni-Gena
1) If the main title of the release is in two languages-- A: Both languages can definitely be entered, although English should be first.
2) If there is one tracklist (and only one) with two languages: A: Both languages can be entered, again with English being the main language.

Totally going against what management always preaches, as on release goes out the door?

Amsreddevil
you add as on release, as with everything else on discogs.

Exactly. If a Russian release has English titles printed more prominently than the Russian, then the English should go first. But just to use English every time completely violates the as-on-release principle and makes no sense.

Fauni-Gena
I received a definitive response and I have permission to quote if from the SR:

My response to this typical management 180

I don't believe it!

Amsreddevil
My response to this typical management 180

I don't believe it!

If you think I'm lying about the content of the SR, which I copied and pasted here, feel free to ping Josh yourself or file a Request. I don't see it as a 180, FWIW. Most of what Josh wrote is status quo. The only exception to that, and the part that seems to be causing everyone heartache, is the English first thing. While I prefer primary language first, just like everyone else, I can see why they'd make this decision for two reasons: 1) English is the primary language of Discogs, and 2) When we started doing no translation/no transliteration, enter the main language titles a lot of sellers were furious and felt it would hurt their sales. I personally don't understand why the order would make it easier or harder to read the information. I'd like to see primary language first but I can live with it either way.

Yukabacera
Exactly. If a Russian release has English titles printed more prominently than the Russian, then the English should go first. But just to use English every time completely violates the as-on-release principle

Again, I don't disagree with you, but... I'm not sure "as-on-release" was ever a bedrock principle on Discogs. We often don't enter credits as on release, for example.

Amsreddevil
if the non-English is first, that goes first, that is how it has always been done afaik,

You're right. I have to reverse the order on probably three quarters of my Hebrew submissions that have some English now. It's going to be a pain.

Yukabacera
Any language that is official in the country of release should take priority over a foreign language.

Not if that isn't the primary language on the release. Israel has two official languages (Hebrew and Arabic) and I can show you releases where Arabic is primary, where Hebrew is primary, where English or French are primary, and where languages are given equal prominence.

What I find ridiculous is how this interacts with RSG 3.1.3:

RSG
c. It is best to use the title on the cover, but also consider what is going to be most useful to other s, so the most complete title is better no matter where it appears. In rare cases, it may be necessary to make up a compound title from the various versions of the title on the cover, spine, label etc. Use the notes field to mention any important differences.

I have a whole bunch of Israeli releases which have just Hebrew on the front cover, but English (and maybe Arabic) on the back cover or spines. Suddenly what's on the spine goes ahead of what's on the front cover? That bothers me. Example: מטרופולין* - השלישי = The Third Does anyone really think the English should be first given what that cover looks like?

Since this decision is so incredibly controversial I've pinged Josh and asked him to the two ongoing threads.

Fauni-Gena
If you think I'm lying about the content of the SR

I believe you, I don't believe their response. Yes, this is an English based site, but we should not adapt information to suit the minority of the world that speaks English.

Fauni-Gena
We often don't enter credits as on release, for example.

As close to with the credits list we have, but that is something completely different to how the main info is added, it is a 180 as before we have been told to add as on release, whichever language comes first. I will try and find the thread, but it was long ago at the beginning of my 'career' here.

Fauni-Gena
Since this decision is so incredibly controversial I've pinged Josh and asked him to the two ongoing threads.

Thanks.

Just to add that it wasn't incredibly controversial until Fauni changed her mind :P

Second, stagg have already replied to me advising they are discussing the issue and will get back to us shortly.

Eviltoastman
Just to add that it wasn't incredibly controversial until Fauni changed her mind :P

It was controversial from the start. I didn't change my mind. I decided at first to live with the decision since at least we were getting Guidelines and weren't going to have this as thread (or two) or the week over and over again. However, I agree with the consensus and decided that pushing to change that one part is a good idea.

Eviltoastman
Second, stagg have already replied to me advising they are discussing the issue and will get back to us shortly.

Great. Thanks.

Fauni-Gena
Not if that isn't the primary language on the release. Israel has two official languages (Hebrew and Arabic) and I can show you releases where Arabic is primary, where Hebrew is primary, where English or French are primary, and where languages are given equal prominence.

Of course. As I said:

Yukabacera
If a Russian release has English titles printed more prominently than the Russian, then the English should go first.

For example, if you have a record from Israel that has big English titles and smaller titles in Hebrew or Arabic underneath, I think it's totally correct to use the English title as the first one since it is the most prominent. On those releases where English is present and is on equal with other languages I think it should be up to the submitter, really.

Yukabacera
On those releases where English is present and is on equal with other languages I think it should be up to the submitter, really.

Actually, I'd rather have a standard so that the database is consistent.

Fauni-Gena
Actually, I'd rather have a standard so that the database is consistent.

Nothing against that either. I just think it's bad to say English should be first across the board and in every case.

Fauni-Gena
I'd rather have a standard so that the database is consistent.

as on release would be consistent, whatever appears first gets added first. I think that is pretty simple and not hard to follow, keep things easy, guidelines are complicated enough as it is.

Amsreddevil
as on release would be consistent, whatever appears first gets added first. I think that is pretty simple and not hard to follow, keep things easy, guidelines are complicated enough as it is.

No argument from me :)

Fauni-Gena
Actually, I'd rather have a standard so that the database is consistent.

To me this argument looks rather funny. We talking about music carriers, so an expression of the arts. We have the conflict, so more we going to rule everything, so more we go wrong.
Off course we need a general line for orienting on, and to me 'as on release' works pretty good. In a few strange cases we have the forum to ask for advice. Otherwise there are the release notes to declare the circumstances, and of course the images to show how things are indeed. There never will be the 'One Size Fits It All'.

Fauni-Gena
Actually, I'd rather have a standard so that the database is consistent.

You mean "consistent" as in: "Adjusted catalog# for sorting on label page"?
Hm.
Discogs has been through that phase already.
It didn't turn out really well, I recall.

manus-von-alles
There never will be the 'One Size Fits It All'.

There will be only One Size Fits All!
Arf, she said.

manus, I think you misunderstand me. As on release is a consistent rule even if the language ordering is different on different releases. I think we do need one rule, not submitter's choice, in order to avoid the endless arguments we've had on this issue over the years.

Fauni-Gena
As on release is a consistent rule even if the language ordering is different on different releases.

I thought that's what you meant. ;)

But then again:

nik
"As on release" is not a guideline or rule as such, it is a concept that is reflected in some guidelines on the site. It should not be applied as a blanket rule.

Ambivalence rules.

Hi all,

Sorry to have caused so much controversy here, I did provide inadvertent misguidance to Fauni-Gena when she reached out for advice on this issue yesterday. English should come first only when it is first on the release, not in every case. As an example, on http://discogs.versitio.com/Charlie-Palmieri-Hay-Que-Estar-En-Algo-Either-You-Have-It-Or-You-Dont/master/411983 , since the primary language is Spanish, it is correct for it to appear first. Sincere apologies all around for the confusion.

Additionally, as I've discussed the broader issue of how to document primary / secondary language on a release further with Weetzie will be posting a proposal in that regard in the next couple of days.

Thanks for the clarification Josh, that makes sense.

Yukabacera
Thanks for the clarification Josh, that makes sense.

Agreed. Thanks, Josh.

Glad to make a correction when there's been a genuine mistake!

Thanks a lot Josh

drivebybird, and I have been discussing this issue, and felt it was time to suggest an update to the Database Guidelines that would provide better advice for multilingual releases.

We think there is value in encouraging multiple languages to be documented on multilingual releases. This not only accurately reflects the information on the release, but it also makes Discogs more of a global resource.

We have considered the pros and cons of how to best separate languages on a multilingual release, and have considered forum arguments along with outside resources. We consulted WorldCat, which is a worldwide union catalog that itemizes the collections of 72,000 libraries in 170 countries and territories, representing over 2 billion physical and digital assets in more than 470 languages. WorldCat separates multilingual titles with an equal sign between the two languages.

We see the benefit in using a universally recognized and accepted method (the equal sign) but we also see the benefit in using a method that better fits the existing styleguide that has been used across the website in the past (the slash).

Rather than changing the current guidelines, we are considering adding to the Languages section of the guidelines:
1.8.2.d. If multiple languages are used on the release, you can document the second language where appropriate. Separate the two languages using the punctuation documented on the release itself. 1.8.2.e. If there is no punctuation between the two languages, then use a “=” between the two languages.

So, after the addition, the Languages section of the Database Guidelines would read:

Languages
RSG §1.8.1. The default language of Discogs is English. However, Discogs s Unicode and allows releases in any language and character set. Releases must be submitted in the language used on them, they should not be translated or transliterated.
RSG §1.8.2. Some releases may have entire sections of text duplicated in multiple languages - for example the tracklistings on some classical releases. For these cases, please use the following rules to decide which language to enter:
RSG §1.8.2.a. Use the primary language on the release (probably the same language that is used in the small print). If there is no clear primary language then… RSG §1.8.2.b. Use the English version. If there is no English version then… RSG §1.8.2.c. Use the language version that the releasing labels country uses. 1.8.2.d. If multiple languages are used on the release, you can document the second language where appropriate. Separate the two languages using the punctuation documented on the release itself. 1.8.2.e. If there is no punctuation between the two languages, then use a “=” between the two languages.

For example the Charlie Palmieri release mentioned earlier would be listed as:
Hay Que Estar En Algo = Either You Have It Or You Don't!

This is the update we are considering, but before we make any change to the Database Guidelines we would like to hear your thoughts on this proposed change. If there is a strong that we should use a slash “/” rather than an equal sign “=” then we will move forward in that way instead.

Weetzie
We see the benefit in using a universally recognized and accepted method

Hear, hear!
That's a reasoning I personally always appreciate because it brings the Discogs Parallel Universe™ more in sync with the Universe As We Know It. ;)

Weetzie
1.8.2.e. If there is no punctuation between the two languages, then use a “=” between the two languages.

No objection so far, except:
What if the track list is in three languages without punctuation, e.g. one line each:
    Wonderful Song
A1  Wunderbares Lied
    Nádherná píseň

Reducing the guideline to "two languages" is then a source for conflicts. If all languages can be considered equal on a release, there should be no arbitrary limit:
A1  Wonderful Song = Wunderbares Lied = Nádherná píseň

Great point! I fully agree that there should be no arbitrary limit. We had considered that, but I guess the language I used doesn't quite cover that situation.

What do you think about this modification?

1.8.2.d. If multiple languages are used on the release, you can document them where appropriate. Separate languages using the punctuation documented on the release itself. 1.8.2.e. If there is no punctuation between languages, then use a “=” between languages.

Weetzie
1.8.2.e. If there is no punctuation between the two languages, then use a “=” between the two languages.

Yuck! An equal sign as a separator? Really? Talk about ugly and something this is NOT done on other websites. drivebybird pointed out.

Weetzie
If there is a strong that we should use a slash “/” rather than an equal sign “=” then we will move forward in that way instead.

YES! I realize I am only one voice, but I am primarily entering international releases right now. I find the slash far preferable.

Weetzie
1.8.2.d. If multiple languages are used on the release, you can document them where appropriate. Separate languages using the punctuation documented on the release itself.

So... if a classical release has six languages we can enter all six? Surely there has to be a limit: primary language +1 or +2 at most. If none is clearly primary and English is included let's stick with English as we have in the past.

loukash
If all languages can be considered equal on a release, there should be no arbitrary limit:

Disagree. What you will end up are unreadable disasters instead of submissions.

Fauni-Gena
YES! I realize I am only one voice, but I am primarily entering international releases right now. I find the slash far preferable.

Same here.

Fauni-Gena
I find the slash far preferable.

We definitely value your , especially since we know you submit so many international releases!
Just out of curiosity, do you find the slash preferable just because that's what has been used in the past, or do you have other reasons?

Fauni-Gena
I find the slash far preferable.

You'll get used to it. ;)

~~~

In the meantime I have also consulted my wife: she's a librarian since at least 30 years.
She's confirmed that "=" is now the standard, even in cases when other punctuation exists "on the release".
However, she's never had to use it yet in the library where she works for since 10 years.
And earlier they were always using semicolon as language separator.

That said, I don't mean that I dislike slash in general.
But it's already being used as a separator for a different purpose: split releases
That's why using different separators for different purposes is the right way to go, and sticking to accepted standards anyway.

Fauni-Gena
What you will end up are unreadable disasters instead of submissions.

That's a display issue, irrelevant to the method we catalog data.

Fauni-Gena
if a classical release has six languages we can enter all six?

That's a good point.
But that the proposal says we can, not "must":

1.8.2.d. If multiple languages are used on the release, you can document them where appropriate.

Weetzie
Just out of curiosity, do you find the slash preferable just because that's what has been used in the past, or do you have other reasons?

I'll be the first to it it's personal preference. The = looks weird to me. The in parentheses option others subjected above also looks better but it makes it impossible at first glance to distinguish a subtitle from an alternate title, particularly in languages one may not understand.

loukash
She's confirmed that "=" is now the standard

Where? In which countries? Is that a universal standard? I seriously doubt it.

Clue: In the U.S. we have two competing style guides for the English language that are used by various academic institutions. To make a statement about a blanket standard simply flies in the face of facts.

loukash
But that the proposal says we can, not "must":

When it comes to six languages I want the Guidelines to say "must not".

loukash
But it's already being used as a separator for a different purpose: split releases

Exactly! These are split titles. It's essentially the same thing.

loukash
You'll get used to it. ;)

I've been on Discogs for six and a half years. There are many things we do here that I have never gotten used to and still dislike. I follow the Guidelines because I must, not because I agree with all of them or find them all sensible.

Fauni-Gena
Where? In which countries? Is that a universal standard?

The standards valid for continental Europe.
She said that the online databases she uses are also connected to WorldCat, among others.
So yep, universal.
For the record, she works at a scientific library which "gathers focus excessively literature on the subjects psychiatry, psychology, neurology, social sciences, and related fields" (translation courtesy of Googlefish).

Fauni-Gena
These are split titles. It's essentially the same thing.

They are essentially a completely different thing:
• The usage of slash as a separator on a split release indicates that both titles have nothing in common whatsoever. Hence split release.
• The usage of punctuation in a multilingual title is supposed to indicate that each part means the same thing.

Vive la différence.

That's why I am not suprised that "=" has apparently become the standard, because it means exactly that:

loukash
A1  Wonderful Song = Wunderbares Lied = Nádherná píseň

Whether I like how it looks or not is irrelevant.
The meaning of the separator is immediately obvious just by looking at it, without even being aware of any "standard".

“=” = Good Thing™

Fauni-Gena
There are many things we do here that I have never gotten used to and still dislike

You don't have to tell me that… :D

Fauni-Gena
When it comes to six languages I want the Guidelines to say "must not".

What if the release/track titles are so by design?
Then an "exception" will be needed. Means: debates, debates, debates.

But I'd agree on a compromise clause that in rare cases of an "excessive" amount of languages and when all of them would be considered as being of "equal importance", a selection should be made. Particularly if extra long titles like on classical releases are involved. The other language variations can be listed in notes then.

loukash
• The usage of punctuation in a multilingual title is supposed to indicate that each part means the same thing.

What about when it doesn't mean the same thing? What about (as often seems to happen on Israeli releases) when there is one title in Hebrew and a completely different title in English? They aren't equivalent at all. Heck, this even happens with band names in Israel. The Hebrew equivalent of The Beatles, the most successful pop/rock band ever, is Kaveret. Kaveret is Hebrew for Beehive. In English, though, they are usually called Poogy, which was originally the drummer's nickname and then a character in their stories and songs. It is not and never was the name of the band, but overseas it became just that.

The whole problem is that = means equivalence and I could start listing case after case after case where the two sides of the equal sign would not be equivalent.

loukash
“=” = Good Thing™

No, it isn't, but I really appreciate you giving me a rational, logical reason to argue why it just isn't. Thanks.

loukash
What if the release/track titles are so by design?
Then an "exception" will be needed. Means: debates, debates, debates.

Which can't be worse than what we have now.

loukash
But I'd agree on a compromise clause that in rare cases of an "excessive" amount of languages and when all of them would be considered as being of "equal importance", a selection should be made

Then the argument becomes about how many are excessive. Set a number then there is no argument.

Fauni-Gena
What about when it doesn't mean the same thing? What about (as often seems to happen on Israeli releases) when there is one title in Hebrew and a completely different title in English? They aren't equivalent at all.

Then it's not subject to RSG §1.8.2. ff. at all:

Some releases may have entire sections of text duplicated in multiple languages

"Duplication" = "same thing twice"

With the premise that for our usage we're defining a translation as being a "same thing" as the original.
Otherwise the whole guideline wouldn't make any sense in the first place.

Fauni-Gena
In English, though, they are usually called Poogy, which was originally the drummer's nickname and then a character in their stories and songs. It is not and never was the name of the band, but overseas it became just that.

Isn't that a bit off topic?
If the band's name is not an equivalent/transliteration/translation, then it's simply an alias.

Fauni-Gena
Then the argument becomes about how many are excessive. Set a number then there is no argument.

There is a reason I didn't, as you may perhaps recall from our "collaborative artists" discussions:
I dislike arbitrary numbers.

loukash
There is a reason I didn't, as you may perhaps recall from our "collaborative artists" discussions:
I dislike arbitrary numbers.

...and I think they reduce arguments :) We'll simply have to agree to disagree on this point. Vive la différence, as a certain 'ogger posted recently.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have an Arik Einstein boxed set that I've put off submitting for way too long.

Fauni-Gena
The whole problem is that = means equivalence and I could start listing case after case after case where the two sides of the equal sign would not be equivalent.

Another possible sign for "=", would be "≙", or maybe like on (mostly) japanese releases with two languages "≈"

I don't like the "=" sign for the very reasons why nik was against us using the heart symbol to denote love when it is used to denote love on a release. Partly because the blind will read it as "black heart suit" not love and the equal sign will be read as "equals" which is factually inaccurate as well as awful looking. It would be quite similar to the Manchester United grey kit fiasco of 1996.

As releases will normally have a dominant or primary language, I feel that the primary language on the release followed by the subordinate in parenthesis is a simpe and elegeant solution for both main titles and track titles and wouldn't necessarilly look like "very bad mathmatics".

Fauni-Gena
I find the slash far preferable.

+1

Weetzie
1.8.2.d. If multiple languages are used on the release, you can document the second language where appropriate. Separate the two languages using the punctuation documented on the release itself. 1.8.2.e. If there is no punctuation between the two languages, then use a “=” between the two languages.

Taking the proposed guideline literally, a release such as
陰猟腐厭* = Inryo-fuen* - 抱握 = Ho-aku

would have to be entered as
陰猟腐厭* = Inryo-fuen* - 抱握 = Ho-aku

I hope not.

el_duro
Taking the proposed guideline literally, a release such as
陰猟腐厭* / Inryo-fuen* - 抱握 / Ho-aku
would have to be entered as
陰猟腐厭* = Inryo-fuen* - 抱握 = Ho-aku

Excellent example.

Not knowing what the Chinese text means or what it's all about, I would immediately assume that "陰猟腐厭* / Inryo-fuen* – 抱握 / Ho-aku" is a split release.

Not so by looking at "陰猟腐厭* = Inryo-fuen* – 抱握 = Ho-aku".

Syntax matters.™

Eviltoastman
the equal sign will be read as "equals" which is factually inaccurate

We're not performing math operations here:

loukash
With the premise that for our usage we're defining a translation as being a "same thing" as the original.
Otherwise the whole guideline wouldn't make any sense in the first place.

We're not dividing "抱握" by "Ho-aku" either.
Oh, wait! We're using a slash, so we must be dividing!
Damn math. I shouldn't have fallen asleep that often…

Eviltoastman
as well as awful looking

Irrelevant; even more when used as an artist er.

Eviltoastman
the primary language on the release followed by the subordinate in parenthesis is a simpe and elegeant solution for both main titles and track titles

Yes, that will often be the case.

The new RSG §1.8.2. is primarily for situations when this is not the case.

teninchfan
Another possible sign for "=", would be "≙", or maybe like on (mostly) japanese releases with two languages "≈"

There are thousands "more suitable" Unicode characters to choose from, but the point quite apparently is to resort to the basic ASCII set in order to keep the input easy.
I, for one, know how to access "≈" (option-X on Swiss Macintosh keyboard layout), but I haven't had a clue what's "≙" until I looked up in the Character Viewer. That's not part of any standard keyboard layout I'm aware of, let alone any general font: on OS X 10.8.x it's avalable only in Menlo and Apple Symbols.

I assume, that's exactly why "=" has been chosen as the standard.
Such decisions are usually made for good reasons.

loukash - i was kidding with ≙ and ≈
To be honest it is not important for me what to use... "/", "="... both is welcome here, even if i think "/" would be the better choice

teninchfan
i was kidding

In that case you forgot to use the most important character(s) for such purpose: " ;) "
;)

teninchfan
even if i think "/" would be the better choice

loukash
Syntax matters.™

In my offline database and in iTunes.app I use a plethora of punctuation characters, each for a different purpose.
I use "/" strictly for multi-part/multi-title tracks, medleys and the like.
I use (parentheses) for multilingual titles, but usually only on cover versions to add the original title.
I use {brackets} in my database to add uncredited or misspelled artists, omitted title parts, uncredited track version (just recently I've discovered that in my collection I have 6 unique versions of "Rock Around The Clock" recorded by Bill Haley) etc.
I use a plethora of more or less obscure Unicode character for different purposes both in iTunes (mainly in the Grouping tag for automatic Smart List distribution) and in my database, including: ≈ • † > ¯ ª ¶ $ £
Etc.

To each their own.

In a database with 2,000,000+ ed s, settling on a widely accepted international standard is a Wise Thing™.

loukash
We're not performing math operations here:

Which is precisely my point and why it should not be used.

loukash
Oh, wait! We're using a slash, so we must be dividing!

A slash has two purposes. One in maths, one in English grammar. The equal sign has one, in maths and has the same meaning in English. Your response was peurile.

The slash used to separate the two languages is problematic as advised above. it makes it apepar as if two different tracks are involved or tat two artists are involved. It makes it appear to be a split release. Parenthesis trump the slash and the equals as it does not warp meaning and does not serve as a double entendre.

Eviltoastman
Parenthesis trump the slash and the equals as it does not warp meaning

So you don't mean "meaning" as in:
"Title (Subtitle)"
"Important (Less Important)"

Eviltoastman
A slash has two purposes. One in maths, one in English grammar. The equal sign has

… two. One in maths, one in international catag syntax.

Now if you please excuse me, I'm going to bang my head against the old maple tree in our back yard. At this point I can't imagine any better and more funny way how to spend a cloudy and potentially rainy Saturday afternoon. (Except for ing my wife who's just cleaning up the living room floor. But having a choice, I take the maple.)

loukash
and sticking to accepted standards anyway.

We don't for a lot of other things on this site, why should we bow to what is 'conventional' for this? It feels very unnatural to use an = for this, especially if you don't know the language (I don't know Russian), how do I know for sure the title IS the same in both languages? Same for the Japanese and Polish releases I entered with 2 languages. Fortunately most had their own separators including slashes on some releases.

How about something unambiguous like ~ ?

edit: not unambiguous in this case, sorry, but something that means "nothing', is there such a thing?

loukash
Not knowing what the Chinese text means or what it's all about, I would immediately assume that "陰猟腐厭* / Inryo-fuen* – 抱握 / Ho-aku" is a split release.

Same here. The slash is commonly used on split releases, also on track titles when the track consists of more than one composition, i.e. De Danann - Selected Jigs Reels & Songs. Because of this, I don't think it would be the best choice to represent a translation, whether it's a direct translation or more of an alternative title/name. (Sometimes a direct translation is not possible)

So if we have to choose between "=" and "/", my vote goes for "=". It might not be the best looking character in the world, but it fits the purpose.

Eviltoastman
I feel that the primary language on the release followed by the subordinate in parenthesis is a simple and elegant solution

Like with the slash, the parentheses are already in use for another purpose, they are for subtitles and version names. In addition, the thought might seem fine when there's only one additional language, but how it's going to work if there are multiple languages? What separator are we going to use within the parentheses, when most common characters are already in use in the titles? What if there's a translation of a title and a subtitle? Double parentheses?

We need a single character, IMO, and I think in this case the "strangeness" of "=" is an advantage.

Amsreddevil
How about something unambiguous like ~ ?

Unfortunately it is not easily accessible on all keyboards, otherwise not a bad idea. Tilde has multiple uses, the meaning depends on the field.

loukash
I dislike arbitrary numbers.

I do too. We've had way too many problems with arbitrary numbers, they always end up seeming illogical, and require extra work from voters (because people don't read the guidelines as well as they should). So my opinion is that it's either all or nothing. Either all language versions can be entered to the track listing, or then they all go to Notes. No random numbers, thank you.

[sorry for the long post, I tried keeping it short...]

Amsreddevil
We don't for a lot of other things on this site, why should we bow to what is 'conventional' for this?

Because it's a Smart Thing™ not to attempt to reinvent the wheel?

Amsreddevil
how do I know for sure the title IS the same in both languages?

Is Amsreddevil
Fortunately most had their own separators including slashes on some releases.
Then it's a non-issue.

Amsreddevil
How about something unambiguous like ~ ?

In general, why not?
I, for one, like tilde as separator:

loukash
~~~

Amsreddevil
something that means "nothing', is there such a thing?

That depends on what you understand by "nothing"
Every Unicode character has a name, so each means already "something".

| pipe? (easy to confuse with "I" and "l" in many sans-serif fonts)
\ backslash?
_ underscore?
@$#*%…?

Ultimately, technical separators should be characters from the "Basic Latin" Unicode table in order to be accessible to most s, without requiring expert knowledge how to use your input device.
For instance, many special characters are not easily or not at all directly available on mobile devices. (E.g. my favorites ® and ™ are not available on iOS 6.x keyboard layout.)
The choice is thus rather limited.

loukash
Is auboisdormant
Unfortunately it is not easily accessible on all keyboards

Of course, I am so used to using my alt key, forget others are not.

loukash
the "Basic Latin" Unicode table

Alt + 126 is a ~ , that is from the unicode table, or am I getting things confused?

loukash
Because it's a Smart Thing™ not to attempt to reinvent the wheel?

We aren't, we are attempting to find something that can separate titles neutrally, = is not neutral imo.

Amsreddevil
Alt + 126 is a ~ , that is from the unicode table, or am I getting things confused?

Apparently it is, albeit the decimal equivalent:

Tilde
Unicode Hex: U+007E
Unicode Dec: 126

In any case it's part of the Basic Latin table, that's why I don't have any objections.
On many keyboard layouts, incl. the US ANSI layout, it's even printed on a key.

Amsreddevil
we are attempting to find something that can separate titles neutrally

The only truly neutral solution would be going one normalization step further and "atomize" titles into further pieces on the database level.
But I doubt that the Discogs staff is ready to venture such a leap yet, that's why I didn't even mention it so far. :P

loukash
Is Permalink

You have all raised some great points. Thanks for all of the !
I can see this isn't going to be an easy decision!

• We could just use the bloody slash separator that has been used for this purpose on this site for ages.
• We will not.
• Instead, we will pretend that the slash is causing all sorts of problems and confusion, prompting huge numbers of people to mistakenly believe things to be split releases which are not, and pretend that this is a huge blight on the database, marketplace disputes spinning out of control with irate buyers who thought they were getting split releases, etc. We will then choose to employ some bizarre character that is not in ordinary English usage for this purpose nor recommended by any of the four major English usage style guides, and we will waste days or possibly weeks arguing over which particular oddity to employ. Finally, a character will be chosen by a staff member anyway, seemingly arbitrary, with a correspondingly brief and inadequate justification, and then we will all go about the business of undoing work we have already done by editing releases that have happily sat in the database for years without causing the slightest bit of trouble, which will give opportunity to squabble amongst ourselves in release histories, get hit with NMC votes by other s who haven't read the decision buried in this thread and just go by what has always been done with no problems, so that these arguments and disgruntlements can then spill back over here into the forum and tie up valuable staff time with numerous redundant SRs that will prevent them from tackling actual problems with the database, like the various longstanding bugs and glitches on the basic operational side of the site that nobody ever seems to have the time or resources to handle.

ChampionJames
• We could just use the bloody slash separator that has been used for this purpose on this site for ages.

From my experience, translations are most commonly entered in parentheses. I rarely have seen a slash used for translations. Maybe some s have used a slash, but I don't see it being a standard in any way.

ChampionJames
We will then choose to employ some bizarre character that is not in ordinary English usage for this purpose nor recommended by any of the four major English usage style guides

Do the English style guides actually cover this issue? They handle database entry methods as well?

Besides it's not like Discogs follows any language style guide in other issues either.

ChampionJames
has been used for this purpose […] for ages

We could also return to living on trees and spend our lifetimes eating ants we've picked with a twig because that turned out to be a highly successful concept about a million years ago. Some of our hominid relatives have never given up this technique until today, so it must be good.

But yeah, every change hurts.
That pain is the price we pay for progress and increasing complexity, I guess.

auboisdormant
I rarely have seen a slash used for translations.

They are ubiquitous on classical releases.

auboisdormant
Do the English style guides actually cover this issue?

Of course.

auboisdormant
They handle database entry methods as well?

They handle bibliography, discography, citation of information sources, etc. But to your point, no, the term "Discogs," upsettingly, does not to my knowledge appear in any of them.

auboisdormant
Besides it's not like Discogs follows any language style guide in other issues either.

No, Discogs follows arbitrary whim and misguidance and then falls back on clauses in the guidelines that insist s follow "Standard English" without giving any indication what that means or choosing any one of the several accepted systems.

How about we use ™ since loukash seems to like it so much?

I've never seen anything other than a slash used to separate the same title in different languages and this is the way I and most people I know have been writing things since forever. Okay, I've seen parentheses used as well. But using parentheses in this case WOULD be confusing, because we already use those for subtitles. Now while it is true that we use the slash for split releases, you'd have to be an idiot to not be able to tell apart the situation of "slash in the context of a split release" and "slash in the context of a multilingual release". Oh, okay, I can think of a couple situations where it would be very slightly confusing: a single that has a song in English on the A side and in German on the B side, or something like that. But that would such a minor issue that I don't think it's even worth taking into . The slash is the perfect symbol to use for this.

= makes no sense because, as taklit-sarut already pointed out, a translation is not always a direct translation, and using = implies that the two or three titles are.

I guess using ~ or, god forbid, - wouldn't be as nonsensical as =, but it's still not common usage, and - is already used for various things in titles.

If we have to ditch the slash, the best symbol to use, in my opinion, would be the em dash —. I've seen it used for this purpose on some releases, actually. But it's not a standard symbol available on keyboards and that would complicate things too much. (then again, ℗ and © aren't either...) ~ isn't standard on some keyboards either, I think.

Yukabacera
But it's not a standard symbol available on keyboards and that would complicate things too much.

If we only have the choice from keyboard standards the selection is very limited...
How about {.....}?

Still ~ would be my favorite, even if it is no standard sign

auboisdormant
From my experience, translations are most commonly entered in parentheses. I rarely have seen a slash used for translations. Maybe some s have used a slash, but I don't see it being a standard in any way.

Fauni-Gena

joshm1979
I did take the discussion up with Nik, and he feels that either method can be considered acceptable. Community should use whichever method is clearest for them, or provides a better format for documenting the information. He did mention that in the past, he has used a slash in situations such as this: Charlie Palmieri - Hay Que Estar En Algo = Either You Have It Or You Don't!

There's not a sense here that it's critical to designate an official method, as that's likely to create a lot of confusion and frustration when encountering older submissions and so on. As it stands, both methods -- parenthesis or slash -- should be considered acceptable, both for submitting and voting.

Seems that using a slash in titles was an accepted standard. At least until three days ago ;-)

ChampionJames
They handle bibliography, discography, citation of information sources, etc.

Could you inform us who are not familiar of every page of their content, what do they recommend using in cases like these? Are you talking about a specific style guide, because I would be interested in reading what they have to say.

But - I don't blame Discogs for not following a language style guide in every issue, especially when you have to take into that this is a database. Databases have also their own guides, which differ from the language guides. There are some things though where Discogs could follow a language style guide... but that is a different topic.

Yukabacera
= makes no sense because, as taklit-sarut already pointed out, a translation is not always a direct translation, and using = implies that the two or three titles are.

The translation most of the time isn't a 100 % direct translation anyway, most of the time something gets lost. Song titles and lyrics, alongside with poetry, are among the hardest things to translate, and often you have to make a choice which doesn't take into all aspects of the titles, as they contain metaphors, wordplays, etc. I'd personally see "=" just meaning that both Title A and Title B are titles for the same composition. It could be even used for alternative titles in one language if they are presented in equal manner.

teninchfan
Still ~ would be my favorite, even if it is no standard sign

Is tilde ever used in titles? Like I said earlier, I don't mind it at all, my only concerns are that it's not included in all keyboards.

teninchfan
How about {.....}?

I think the curly brackets have the same problem as parentheses, though to a lesser extent. While they are not currently used for anything, in cases where the title actually contains brackets of any kind, it would be a lot of bracket action. And we would still need to decide how to separate several languages within the brackets... or would they be used per language, i.e.

English Title (English Subtitle) {Spanish Title (Spanish Subtitle)} {French Title (French Subtitle)}

el_duro
Seems that using a slash in titles was an accepted standard.

Accepted method, yes, but the fact that nik has used a slash in one of his submissions without pointing it out to anyone doesn't mean it's a site-wide standard, which has been used by everyone. If that was the case, then this discussion would probably not even exist. :-)

loukash
We could also return to living on trees and spend our lifetimes eating ants we've picked with a twig because that turned out to be a highly successful concept about a million years ago. Some of our hominid relatives have never given up this technique until today, so it must be good.

But yeah, every change hurts.
That pain is the price we pay for progress and increasing complexity, I guess.

Ah, yes, it is our solemn duty to solve hypothetical problems that do not seem to exist and by all appearances have not been problems to date, and we should furthermore castigate and insult anyone who points out the lack of evidence of this ever having been a problem or mentions the fact that it is a preferred method of a number of established catag systems by labeling them backwards troglodytes and implying they are primitive enemies of the progress of the human race.

auboisdormant
Could you inform us who are not familiar of every page of their content, what do they recommend using in cases like these? Are you talking about a specific style guide, because I would be interested in reading what they have to say.

But - I don't blame Discogs for not following a language style guide in every issue, especially when you have to take into that this is a database. Databases have also their own guides, which differ from the language guides. There are some things though where Discogs could follow a language style guide... but that is a different topic.

So, in summary, you would like me to spend a large amount of my time here collating accepted standards from standand manuals and catag guides, typing out their specific recommendations, etc., and you are also saying that you don't really care what they say because Discogs should make its own rules anyway because it is a database (as though the Library of Congress Card Catalog, for instance, were somehow not). Is that about the thrust of it? Thanks, but I'll .

ChampionJames
Is that about the thrust of it?

No, but if you want to understand it that way, be my guest.

ChampionJames
hypothetical problems that do not seem to exist

Reminder:

teninchfan
Two Languages on Release - how to add?

^^ That's the title of this thread.
To me it looks like a real problem that does seem to exist.

ChampionJames
you would like me to spend a large amount of my time here collating accepted standards from standand manuals and catag guides, typing out their specific recommendations, etc.

Excellent idea.
It would certainly help your arguments – which sounded rather emotional to me so far – to be taken more seriously. :)

auboisdormant
Is tilde ever used in titles?

It is, but as far as I can say mainly as a "decorative" element substituting an en-dash or em-dash, not representing a specific meaning.
Other usage is often for "approximately", as in "~1975" etc. That's how I use it personally since decades in my own database.

el_duro
Seems that using a slash in titles was an accepted standard.

Nope.
It was used this way – and I did too, quite a few times – but it wasn't a "standard" by any means, not even in of Discogs. If it were a "Discogs standard", it would have been carved in stone.

loukash
To me it looks like a real problem that does seem to exist.

The hypothetical problem I was clearly referring to, of course, and as of course you well know, was the idea that the slash that currently exists as a separator on huge numbers of these in the database is somehow causing all sorts of confusion about split releases. The attempt to suggest I was referring to the topic as a whole is a decidedly shallow and obvious subterfuge.

loukash
It would certainly help your arguments – which sounded rather emotional to me so far – to be taken more seriously. :)

It is emotional to remark that no standard English style or usage guide suggests the preposterous deployment of a mathematical symbol in the manner that you advocate? I might suggest rather that you wish my argument were emotional, so that you could dismiss it with better footing.

In any event, anyone with a library card may consult the standard Chicago, NYT, Oxford, Fowler, MLA, APA, LoC, MARC, etc. recommendations on this matter for themselves. (As a general trend, most of them suggest enclosing the translated or transliterated equivalents in editorial-style square brackets, though even elementary punctuation manuals will have discussions on the use of slashes as separators for translated titles. Absolutely none of the standard sources suggest abusing any mathematical symbols.)

ChampionJames
• We could just use the bloody slash separator that has been used for this purpose on this site for ages.

We should. Almost anyone who reads English knows that is a separator between two items. I am not looking forward to editing my subs plus others that I've fixed (a number in the hundreds for sure) just to change a / to a =. What a waste of time for no good reason.

ChampionJames
We will then choose to employ some bizarre character that is not in ordinary English usage for this purpose nor recommended by any of the four major English usage style guides, and we will waste days or possibly weeks arguing over which particular oddity to employ. Finally, a character will be chosen by a staff member anyway, seemingly arbitrary, with a correspondingly brief and inadequate justification, and then we will all go about the business of undoing work we have already done by editing releases that have happily sat in the database for years without causing the slightest bit of trouble, which will give opportunity to squabble amongst ourselves in release histories, get hit with NMC votes by other s who haven't read the decision buried in this thread and just go by what has always been done with no problems, so that these arguments and disgruntlements can then spill back over here into the forum and tie up valuable staff time with numerous redundant SRs that will prevent them from tackling actual problems with the database, like the various longstanding bugs and glitches on the basic operational side of the site that nobody ever seems to have the time or resources to handle.

You may win the award for longest sentence I've read on Discogs. Oh, and I agree with you 100%. That's probably the best argument for sticking with the status quo on most releases, which is a slash. Why reinvent the wheel? What will it accomplish, aside from making loukash happy? I have respect for loukash and his opinions, but that just isn't reason enough.

ChampionJames
They are ubiquitous on classical releases.

...and Hebrew releases. No, not just mine. We have at least half a dozen Israelis actively submitting now, plus others who submit occasionally. I've seen it on a lot of Arabic, Japanese and Chinese releases as well.

Yukabacera
How about we use ™ since loukash seems to like it so much?

OK, that made me chuckle.

Yukabacera
I've never seen anything other than a slash used to separate the same title in different languages and this is the way I and most people I know have been writing things since forever. Okay, I've seen parentheses used as well. But using parentheses in this case WOULD be confusing, because we already use those for subtitles

There was no standard, but as we learned in the earlier thread, ChampionJames for that one.)

ChampionJames
Ah, yes, it is our solemn duty to solve hypothetical problems that do not seem to exist and by all appearances have not been problems to date, and we should furthermore castigate and insult anyone who points out the lack of evidence of this ever having been a problem or mentions the fact that it is a preferred method of a number of established catag systems by labeling them backwards troglodytes and implying they are primitive enemies of the progress of the human race.

You just summed up why loukash is so good at pissing me off. OK, he makes me laugh sometimes too. The point is that we're supposed to be discussing proposed Guidelines, which implies different ideas will be tossed about, doesn't it?

el_duro
Seems that using a slash in titles was an accepted standard. At least until three days ago ;-)

It was submitter's choice, and until the new Guidelines are settled it still is. If you want to use an equal sign or a pipe symbol or a bullet there is no rule against it at this point.

One last thought, on what was an important issue in the previous thread: we're supposed to put the primary language first, right? How do we define first? Arabic, Aramaic, Azeri, Farsi, Hebrew and Yiddish, plus a few others, are written right-to-left. That means if I put English on the left and Arabic on the right both languages are first. If I reverse the order both languages are second and no language is first. That seems ridiculous but it really is true. Weetzie, I respectfully suggest the new Guideline must use the right and left rather than first for it to make any sense at all.

Fauni-Gena
What will it accomplish, aside from making loukash happy? I have respect for loukash and his opinions, but that just isn't reason enough.

Ahem.
I didn't ask for it.
I have commented on staff's proposal, and in general I have agreed with it because I find it a reasonable solution. I have commented on the opposition and I have also listed a bunch of alternatives with their pros and cons. (To encourage a process called "brainstorming", for what it's worth.)

But if the loud minority wishes to keep the slash status quo, well then. I have used slash to separate languages before, I can easily use it again. I can't even say "I'll get over it" because there's nothing to "get over".

Fauni-Gena
You just summed up why loukash is so good at pissing me off. OK, he makes me laugh sometimes too.

One can't always please everybody every time. :)

Fauni-Gena
I am not looking forward to editing my subs plus others that I've fixed (a number in the hundreds for sure) just to change a / to a =.

I have no intention to update anything I've submitted to "/", or "=", or whatever is chosen, there's no need to. The few releases I've actually entered them to the track listing I have used the punctuation on the release, which will still be allowed. Also entering the translations to the track listing will still be optional, so I have no reason to move the ones I've entered to Notes. No updates needed. :-)

auboisdormant
taklit-sarutI am not looking forward to editing my subs plus others that I've fixed (a number in the hundreds for sure) just to change a / to a =.
I have no intention to update anything I've submitted to "/", or "=", or whatever is chosen, there's no need to. The few releases I've actually entered them to the track listing I have used the punctuation on the release, which will still be allowed. Also entering the translations to the track listing will still be optional, so I have no reason to move the ones I've entered to Notes. No updates needed. :-)

I agree! +1

http://discogs.versitio.com/viewimages?release=2509040
I was about to change this release because they way was entered made it look like a a-a single.
What is the current "correct" way to enter titles shown in 2 languages?
This release shows only the English title on the disc and cover, and tracklist is in English as well. But additional booklet (like many other Japanese pressings) shows both English and Japanese titles. OS chose to enter both languages. I think English should have been enough since the multi-language text is only on the extra booklet and not main one.

auboisdormant
I have no intention to update anything I've submitted to "/", or "=", or whatever is chosen, there's no need to. The few releases I've actually entered them to the track listing I have used the punctuation on the release, which will still be allowed. Also entering the translations to the track listing will still be optional, so I have no reason to move the ones I've entered to Notes. No updates needed. :-)

Good for you. I have no such luck, simply because I've followed RSG 3.1.3:

RSG
3.1.3. Sometimes the title is different on the cover, on the spine etc. It is best to use the title on the cover, but also consider what is going to be most useful to other s, so the most complete title is better no matter where it appears. In rare cases, it may be necessary to make up a compound title from the various versions of the title on the cover, spine, label etc. Use the notes field to mention any important differences.

Otherwise a lot of Hebrew subs would not have English main titles at all.

In addition, many Hebrew releases have English and Hebrew side by side or above and below with no punctuation at all. I (and other 'oggers) used to submit them that way and, in a forum thread, I was told this was wrong because it made the release look like it only had one title that was half in one language and half in another.

Again, it's nice for you and ChampionJamespoints out, it means hundreds of edits or possible negative votes if the edits are not done.

cdremixcollector
What is the current "correct" way to enter titles shown in 2 languages?

Right now there is no standard. It's submitter's choice.

cdremixcollector
I think English should have been enough since the multi-language text is only on the extra booklet and not main one.

That's contrary to RSG 3.1.3.

Fauni-Gena
That's contrary to RSG 3.1.3.

Actually not contrary to guidelines, the "extra" booklet is the only piece that has multi-language text. And I think it was not the best move to use that to "compound" titles. The front artwork/booklet itself and disc only show English titles. For what is worth another 's copy could be sealed and without the "extra" booklet. So in this case what is visible is what counts (this CD has no near insert btw).

Anywho my question was about what was the correct way to list these titles, but it seems there is no standard. I personally think listing the release titles with "/" makes it look like a A-A sided title, and ( ) should be used instead. For track titles the use of "/" is acceptable though.

I am not too happy with the way these were submitted, but that was before my time...
http://discogs.versitio.com/artist/7717-Enigma?filter_anv=1&anv=%E3%82%A8%E3%83%8B%E3%82%B0%E3%83%9E
It looks like a bunch of collaborations and double-sided titles.

This thread was about titles, but what about artist names that are shown side by side in two languages? (ie. in the results given above)

cdremixcollector
This thread was about titles, but what about artist names that are shown side by side in two languages?

Once upon a time a lot of people used to enter the dual name as an ANV and that was accepted. Some very old submissions may still have artists entered that way as a result. Then the Guidelines changed and the forum discussions that resulted concluded that only one name is used. The choice of which name to use is explained in the Guidelines:

RSG


1.8.1. The default language of Discogs is English. However, Discogs s Unicode and allows releases in any language and character set. Releases must be submitted in the language used on them, they should not be translated or transliterated.

1.8.2. Some releases may have entire sections of text duplicated in multiple languages - for example the tracklistings on some classical releases. For these cases, please use the following rules to decide which language to enter:

1.8.2.a. Use the primary language on the release (probably the same language that is used in the small print). If there is no clear primary language then… 1.8.2.b. Use the English version. If there is no English version then… 1.8.2.c. Use the language version that the releasing labels country uses.

The Enigma examples where both languages are entered as if these are two separate artists who are collaborating is, in my view, incorrect and worthy of NMaC votes.

Fauni-Gena
Otherwise a lot of Hebrew subs would not have English main titles at all.

I don't know about others, but such things don't bother me. Not everything needs to be in English. Of course if the English versions appear on the release, it's good to always put them in the submission as well, but based on this discussion, I'm going to continue entering any translations mainly into Notes. Just too much fuss about the whole deal.

Fauni-Gena
Again, it's nice for you and ApeAstbury. For other s, as ChampionJamespoints out, it means hundreds of edits or possible negative votes if the edits are not done.

What I've wished for a long time to have a voting guideline that would ban giving negative votes over anything that hasn't simply been updated, you know, over something that was once correct but is now incorrect because of a guideline change. But even without a guideline, it's just common courtesy to take such things into .

auboisdormant
I don't know about others, but such things don't bother me. Not everything needs to be in English.

You should have seen the reactions when I moved English titles to notes on releases that were entirely in Hebrew. Sellers went beserk insisting that I was killing their sales. One Israeli actually stopped selling and submitting on Discogs because of it. What is important to you may not reflect what is important to everyone else.

Fauni-Gena
What is important to you may not reflect what is important to everyone else.

I know... That's why I said "I don't know about others..."

auboisdormant
I know... That's why I said "I don't know about others..."

...and I should have assumed as much. I think you know I respect you and your opinions. This is just one of those times we don't quite agree.

Fauni-Gena
This is just one of those times we don't quite agree.

There's no progress without disagreement. :-)

Fauni-Gena
cdremixcollector
This thread was about titles, but what about artist names that are shown side by side in two languages?

Once upon a time a lot of people used to enter the dual name as an ANV and that was accepted. Some very old submissions may still have artists entered that way as a result. Then the Guidelines changed and the forum discussions that resulted concluded that only one name is used. The choice of which name to use is explained in the Guidelines:

1.8.1. The default language of Discogs is English. However, Discogs s Unicode and allows releases in any language and character set. Releases must be submitted in the language used on them, they should not be translated or transliterated.

1.8.2. Some releases may have entire sections of text duplicated in multiple languages - for example the tracklistings on some classical releases. For these cases, please use the following rules to decide which language to enter:

1.8.2.a. Use the primary language on the release (probably the same language that is used in the small print). If there is no clear primary language then… 1.8.2.b. Use the English version. If there is no English version then… 1.8.2.c. Use the language version that the releasing labels country uses.

The Enigma examples where both languages are entered as if these are two separate artists who are collaborating is, in my view, incorrect and worthy of NMaC votes.

emphasis mine

Am I missing something?

http://discogs.versitio.com/forum/thread/52386bf6a86b6d2289df3fe2#53c6c441ad9d35642babaa94

ApeAstbury
Based on the guidelines...... two languages? Is this really correct?
http://discogs.versitio.com/history?release=5884014#latest

Fauni-Gena
Yes, it's correct. It's what I do with Hebrew & English as well. Once again, the relevant Guidelines:

RSG
3.1.2. Enter the title as close to the way it appears on the release as possible, following the general Discogs guidelines for capitalization.

3.1.3. Sometimes the title is different on the cover, on the spine etc. It is best to use the title on the cover, but also consider what is going to be most useful to other s, so the most complete title is better no matter where it appears.

emphasis mine

Could it be you missed the point that not only the title is bilingual but the artist name too?

Gipsy Kings = ジプシー・キングス* - Gipsy Kings = ジプシー・キングス

Again, taking the proposed guideline (which does not distinguish between title and artist name) literally

Weetzie
1.8.2.d. If multiple languages are used on the release, you can document the second language where appropriate. Separate the two languages using the punctuation documented on the release itself. 1.8.2.e. If there is no punctuation between the two languages, then use a “=” between the two languages.

I would not have to use the primary language on the release but enter the Gipsy Kings example as
Gipsy Kings = ジプシー・キングス* – Gipsy Kings = ジプシー・キングス

cdremixcollector
The question about artist names that are shown side by side in two languages was addressed upthread:
http://discogs.versitio.com/forum/thread/53cfe2d44c5e2e29113ec03d#53d35dbbc131f37da9a56ec2

[quote=el_duro] cdremixcollector
The question about artist names that are shown side by side in two languages was addressed upthread:
http://discogs.versitio.com/forum/thread/53cfe2d44c5e2e29113ec03d#53d35dbbc131f37da9a56ec2[/quote]
The use of '=' is rather odd in any context. We should stick to "/" as it has been done all this time. Except the multi-language name should be ANV'd, not entered as 2 separate entities, it makes it look like a collaboration (regardless of the er used).

I revised a recent submission of a Japanese promo CD, how does it look?
Daft Punk - Get Lucky
https://www.flickr.com/photos/105824154@N05/14796517123/
main artist = daft punk (only in english)
release title = get lucky (only in english)
track title = get lucky (radio edit) - in English and Japanese
featured artist = pharrell williams - in English and Japanese