Getting approval for mass edits

It's constantly stated that you have to get approval in the forums before doing any mass edits. This is all well and good in theory but in practice it doesn't always work. I've posted a number of topics recently regarding artist merges and mass edits and gotten no response whatsoever, even after bumping them several times. I've noticed several other s topics have gone unanswered as well.

My question is this: if nobody responds to a topic after several bumps is it ok to assume that there are no objections and go ahead with the mass edit? It seems wrong that information on the DB stays incorrect just because a topic get's no response.

dani72
My question is this: if nobody responds to a topic after several bumps is it ok to assume that there are no objections and go ahead with the mass edit?

yes, nik has in the past said so.

if you get no response for a few days /after a few pumps, send a SR to management and they will usually decide

syke
after a few pumps

I think he should at least buy them dinner first before any of that starts XD

But yes opening the thread is about anyone telling you that you would be wrong to make the edits than being given the go-ahead.

dani72
I've posted a number of topics recently regarding artist merges and mass edits and gotten no response whatsoever, even after bumping them several times.

I have been getting the same lack of response to threads too. The majority of my topics only require a yes/no answer and a brief sentence explaining their choice. I know a few try to avoid me as I don't suffer fools and can be quite outspoken but avoiding threads for this reason doesn't help the database at all.

I agree with ChrisCrass and have the same lack of response. It's frustrating when you bump it 3+ times with zero responses.

I take that as no objections. You have satisfied the requirements to start a thread and looked for discussions and arguments otherwise. If they are not forthcoming that's not really your problem and I think you can safely edit, making a note that you are doing so after no response.

Derby_MH
It's frustrating when you bump it 3+ times with zero responses.

Opdiner
I take that as no objections. You have satisfied the requirements to start a thread and looked for discussions and arguments otherwise. If they are not forthcoming that's not really your problem and I think you can safely edit, making a note that you are doing so after no response.

+1
in other words => that's a silent agreement

While I agree that the absence of a response can imply approval, I prefer to get a few +1's. When doing mass edits, it's always a good idea in the submission notes to link back to the forum thread where approval was given. Linking back to a single forum post where there were nothing but chirping crickets seems pointless.

Yes, but if people won't respond you have little choice. I agree a few +1s are preferable but ...

elchicofritto
in other words => that's a silent agreement

No. It's a lack of response.

I have read a few of those threads in the past. I didn't answer, because I had no knowledge about the topic.
So "No objections" would be the wrong interpretation of my missing answer.

One way to get some responses might be to send a private message to some s that have been updating the artist or label that the edit concerns and invite them to the forum thread. This does of course assume that there are s that have shown that artist or label some interest.

Bong
One way to get some responses might be to send a private message to some s that have been updating the artist or label that the edit concerns and invite them to the forum thread.

Indeed - many (most?) s never check the forums so wouldn't be aware of such topic unless you also left a comment to some relevant subs etc.

In , we have this proverb: "Qui dit mot consent" (rough translation "Who say nothing agree"), don't know if available in other countries (not in "The land of ice and snow" according to some answers here)

Mr-Love
Indeed - many (most?) s never check the forums so wouldn't be aware of such topic unless you also left a comment to some relevant subs etc.

Even if you left comment, threads don't have answers (and there is the problem of people who make mass edits/mass corrections that (generally) don't answer/don't care about comments, the problem is that those people are the only people who get the comments)

mrformic
So "No objections" would be the wrong interpretation of my missing answer.

So would "objections" - it's a neutral response.

But clearly people can't be expected to wait forever - you post, you bump, you maybe PM people and it that doesn't work I don't have an issue with people proceeding. Nik has said a couple of bumps are fine.

Jayfive
But yes opening the thread is about anyone telling you that you would be wrong to make the edits than being given the go-ahead.

Exactly this. It's not about seeking permission but stating the facts of what you are about to do within a given time. Instead of thinking of it as "Can I change this to that" frame it as "If there are no objections by [date] I will be doing this". If there are no responses, the community had been given an opportunity to object. Just do the right thing by avoiding posting on a weekend when there's few people about or if you do, make sure you bump it on a Monday and then when you are making your edits, ensure that every thing you edit includes a pasted link to the forum thread which demonstrates that the thing is not just you acting like a maverick.

Also, not everyone will read the forums and should not be expected to, so do not be surprised if your edits provoke a response missing from the initial thread. We should still be aware that the issue during the edit may not be resolved and the conversation may be far from dead. What the thread's inclusion in the edit should do is prevent any votes against the edit based on the mass edit prevention guideline as it advises the thing needs to be brought up in the forums first, which you have already done.

Also, name your thread properly. Instead of "Can I do this" perhaps a more helpful thread title would be "Intention to change x to y". In retrospect, my thread titles "Ariba! ariba!" wasn't particularly helpful.

Eviltoastman
"Ariba! ariba!"

xD

On a related note, how many edits makes a "mass-edit" and requires a forum post+approval you think?

3+ was the last number banded about following a conversation in the forums involving Nik.

Eviltoastman
Also, name your thread properly.

This, very much this. Cutesy thread titles are annoying and non-descriptive titles just get lost.

thecorroseum
how many edits makes a "mass-edit" and requires a forum post+approval you think?

From http://discogs.versitio.com/forum/thread/525578f14322465ab3623445?page=1#525bd9d3ea62111b283a6125 :

nik
If you feel the edit you are doing is a no-brainer, you are not required to notify anyone.

However, if you do do a mass edit, and don't discuss it / notify anyone, and it later turns out to be wrong or problematic, you may end up with a warning or even a sanction - especially if it is a reoccurring problem.

The guideline is about making sure you are handling the data correctly, it is not supposed to be adding a layer of bureaucracy. Due to that, I would like to keep it a guideline (not a rule), and i do not want to specify numbers, time duration etc.

mrformic
I have read a few of those threads in the past. I didn't answer, because I had no knowledge about the topic.
So "No objections" would be the wrong interpretation of my missing answer.

TBH I don't agree that you have to know the artist to answer a question. I've helped out before where s were getting no response whatsoever even when I didn't know the artists/labels involved (see for instance J Church Publishing Company. & Frank or Franklin?). If someone suggests Artist X & Artist Y need merging often times all I need to do is look at the profiles of both to be able to determine if they are right. Sometimes it might be more complex and I cant help but I'll usually have a look anyway if I have the time.

Opdiner
I take that as no objections.

I used to take it like that too until I got shouted down, publicly, for suggesting such a thing.
I had had no responses to a thread and after four or five bumps I simply said something along the lines of "One more bump, If there are no objections I shall carry on with the move" and the only response I got was the Don't You Dare kind of attitude I have come to expect from some forum s, I didn't even get a response to the question at hand just attitude.
I think some s are too scared to get involved in certain topics, especially ones they know little or nothing about, for fear of being patronised or belittled by a small but influential group of s for having a differing opinion to something that was discussed two months ago but they missed due to having more important things to do...like living.

ChrisCrass
I had had no responses to a thread and after four or five bumps I simply said something along the lines of "One more bump, If there are no objections I shall carry on with the move" and the only response I got was the Don't You Dare kind of attitude I have come to expect from some forum s, I didn't even get a response to the question at hand just attitude.

Then that who replied was full of crap (he says after first checking it wasn't himself :P). You do not need the specific go-ahead from anyone. Only whether or not there are objections. The point is that other s can see something you may have missed, not that they are more 'senior' than you and have a casting vote.

The guidelines says you must post in the forums and discuss, not post in the forum and seek permission from x number of s. If there is no replies, then it's a pretty quick discussion and the changes can be made.

If in doubt I would recommend doing a handful of edits explaining this is part of a bigger mass edit and then wait for objections for say 24 hours so that s get email notifications and whatnot.

Jayfive
The guidelines says you must post in the forums and discuss, not post in the forum and seek permission from x number of s. If there is no replies, then it's a pretty quick discussion and the changes can be made.

I'm pretty sure it does not count as a discussion if you're talking to yourself.

It is an attempt at a discussion then. The fact is the guidelines say to open a thread, not to wait until permission is given.

Saying that we are at the point where correct edits are being reverted because there was no discussion. That's IMO stupid. The should simply be told of the need for discussion on the next occasion. Reverting should only happen when there is doubt.

Opening a thread in itself is not quite right reasonable though, is it? It's reasonable to wait a period of time for responses before ploughing ahead. Bumping is not required but it might be reasonable as I advised above to bump if perhaps it's a massive edit or if the original thread was posted at a dead time, at night or during an outage which befell the database around the time of the original post.

edit, included in post below.

Eviltoastman
It's reasonable to wait a period of time for responses before ploughing ahead.

Yes well thats a given. I was assuming people didn't think s should go "Right, there's the thread opened, let's crack on with all the changes".

Jayfive
I was assuming people didn't think s should go "Right, there's the thread opened, let's crack on with all the changes".

It wouldn't surprise me (or you) if that occurred though, would it?!

Regarding the response to the "five bumps" post, the reply he got regarding "not daring" was in all likelihood [given the frequency of poor PAN change requests] another poor PAN change request which would have been contrary to guidelines. Sadly, any oppoisition gets labeled a)bullying, b)condescending, c)patronising* [the favourite] or if there's more than one opposing the defended position d)ganging up.

Eviltoastman
It's reasonable to wait a period of time for responses before ploughing ahead.

How long is reasonable? How many responses are reasonable? What should be done if there aren't any responses at the end of the reasonable period of time?

ChrisCrass
How long is reasonable?

IMO a week or so.

ChrisCrass
What should be done if there aren't any responses at the end of the reasonable period of time?

Then you make the changes linking to the thread in the submission notes.

ChrisCrass
How long is reasonable?

I would in my initial post frame it like an ultimatum:
"All releases from London Records 90 Limited will be merged with London Records 90 Ltd. in 24 hours unless there is a firm objection. Opinions on this matter are of course welcome".
I would wait 24 hours and out of habit will usually give it one bump then push on after a further 24 hours. That bump is not necessary but perhaps reasonable if we're originally posting on a weekend or if the change is massive as it was with Earache (US) (which I was so nervous about I actually just filed an SR in the end).

Of course, you could be halfway through the migration and the thing could be massive and you could suddenly hit a roadblock, someone with knowledge coming up with a valid reason why you've done something incorrectly - like I did with the Twin Tone records migration - in the end nik said the move was fine though it seems superficially incorrect (the decision still stands).

Jayfive
IMO a week or so.

I used to think this, but then I read nik say 24 hours was fine. I'm aware of the mertis of waiting for a long period and aware of the drawbacks too - like forgetting about the thread). Unsure why 24 hours was advised and canot recall the precise context.

Jayfive
Then you make the changes linking to the thread in the submission notes

Indeed. Always link. Protect yourself and the edit with the link explaining the edit.

Eviltoastman
nik say 24 hours was fine.

Ok cool. I can go with that.

Jayfive
Then you make the changes linking to the thread in the submission notes.

Eviltoastman
Always link. Protect yourself and the edit with the link explaining the edit.

Always do.