Submission Form Updated!

Hi submitters!

We have launched the updated submission form, which we have been testing for about a month with your help (thanks!).

There have been some visual changes to make it more consistent with the rest of the site, but the main driver for this change was we now have Headings as separate things from Index tracks.

Here is the difference:

Use a "Heading" whenever the track is descriptive of the tracks below, but is not the title of a musical piece. Examples would be Grant Calvin Weston* With James Blood Ulmer And Jamaaladeen Tacuma - Dance Romance

Use an "Index Track" whenever the Index Track Title is the title of a musical piece and the Sub-tracks below are parts or movements of that piece. The track title must be a valid name for the musical work when presented as "Index Track (Sub-Track)". If it isn't, a heading must be used instead. Examples would be King Crimson - Lizard

Old style 'Index Tracks' are all shown as 'Headings' now, as that was the most common use for them.

First beta thread: http://discogs.versitio.com/forum/thread/52e678754c5e2e66b541079f

Second beta thread: http://discogs.versitio.com/forum/thread/52f0c565ad9d3548c83b1fa0

Awesome news!

I like the heading concept, but I have a whole bunch of releases to change from headings to index tracks :(

Fauni-Gena
I have a whole bunch of releases to change from headings to index tracks :(

It shouldn't take too long to do manually, but I realize it is a pain in the neck.

I plan to chat with the developers about making some of the Old Index Track -> new Index Track updating easier, but first we need to make sure that the updated form is all ok.

Wow. Put index track as usual and has been updated to heading automatically after a while - at least it felt like "automatical". Nice change.

Looks very nice!
The "Submission Notes" heading should be next to the Submission Notes field, not below.

Looks nice, however I'm still wondering how to add medleys. Any word on that yet?

DonHergeFan
The "Submission Notes" heading should be next to the Submission Notes field, not below.

Hmm yeh I see what you mean.

Ivo94
I'm still wondering how to add medleys. Any word on that yet?

Can you give us an example?

failing to see a reason not to have Format - Description dropdown open from the start if vinyl is the default, can't see a sub where it wouldn't be needed.

In the King Crimson example, is the 'Lizard' currently displayed as a Heading but ought to be amended to an Index Track?
(Just testing my own understanding, or lack thereof...)

New form certainly has had a lick of slick paint, nice work.

I also like the heading / index split. Just tried it out in one example: Wachet Auf, Ruft Uns Die Stimme, Kantate BWV 140 / Bringet Dem Herrn Ehre Seines Namens, Kantate BWV 148. Is this the right thing to mark the end of an index track on every release? Looks a bit weird at first sight when you have arrows all over the place..

Thanks for the folks!

schachmatt
I also like the heading / index split. Just tried it out in one example: Wachet Auf, Ruft Uns Die Stimme, Kantate BWV 140 / Bringet Dem Herrn Ehre Seines Namens, Kantate BWV 148. Is this the right thing to mark the end of an index track on every release? Looks a bit weird at first sight when you have arrows all over the place..

Yeh that is right. The display can always be updated at any time.

pinkychukkles
In the King Crimson example, is the 'Lizard' currently displayed as a Heading but ought to be amended to an Index Track?
(Just testing my own understanding, or lack thereof...)

Yeh, I just edited it 2 minutes ago :-)

reallygood
failing to see a reason not to have Format - Description dropdown open from the start if vinyl is the default, can't see a sub where it wouldn't be needed.

Yeh, but if I change it to 'CD' or whatever, that wouldn't be needed.

I updated the guidelines at http://discogs.versitio.com/forum/thread/52151d0b9469733cfcfc8bda#5303d751d07b093ac4650701 .I have no doubt they can and will be improved, but it's a start! Please let me know if you have any ideas for improvements, or if anything is unclear or badly worded etc.

Just amended the Headers on Yes - The Yes Album to Index Tracks - left the track numbering as is but, unless it appears on the release (and I haven't got my copy to hand), do the (i), (ii) need to remain?

Here's another example: Goldie - Timeless. This looks strange having no real trackpos. for complete track 1. It would also look better if sub-tracks would be indented a bit, to make clearer those a sub-tracks, just like in a text.
Furthermore is it okay to have credits moved to index track if they apply for all sub-tracks??

nik
Please let me know if you have any ideas for improvements

may i suggest to amend RSG §1.2.1 as well.

there's an issue with the new form

I'm editing a release were some artists PAN are written with "..." like him : Gimel "Young Guru" Keaton

When I click to the preview I've got warnings telling me that Gimel is a new artist, it is ignoring everything after the 1st "

should I ignore that?

pinkychukkles
do the (i), (ii) need to remain?

Yes.

schachmatt
Here's another example: Goldie - Timeless. This looks strange having no real trackpos. for complete track 1.

Yeh, it needs to be:

1.i
1.ii
1.iii

schachmatt
is it okay to have credits moved to index track if they apply for all sub-tracks?

Yes, for sure!

elchicofritto
may i suggest to amend RSG §1.2.1 as well.

Cool, I'll do that tomorrow, don't trust myself with guidelines this late :-)

BUG? When I moved credits to index track here: Wachet Auf, Ruft Uns Die Stimme, Kantate BWV 140 / Bringet Dem Herrn Ehre Seines Namens, Kantate BWV 148 text in quotes doesn't appear in brackets. The role for Kantate BWV 140 should have been: Lyrics By [Choralweise "Wachet Auf"], now it just shows Lyrics By [Choralweise(...)

RSG §12.13.4

Index Tracks and Headings should not be used for denoting generic side, track position, or separate media data (for example, 'Side A', 'CD1' etc), track numbering is used for this.

Isn't this part of the guideline in place primarily because we did not formerly have a distinction between Index Tracks and Headings? I think if the release itself has a heading and that heading is simply "CD1", "Disc 1", etc. then maybe we should actually allow those to be listed as headings.

nik
Yeh, it needs to be:

1.i
1.ii
1.iii

Did that, still looks kinda strange...

schachmatt
BUG? When I moved credits to index track here: Wachet Auf, Ruft Uns Die Stimme, Kantate BWV 140 / Bringet Dem Herrn Ehre Seines Namens, Kantate BWV 148 text in quotes doesn't appear in brackets. The role for Kantate BWV 140 should have been: Lyrics By [Choralweise "Wachet Auf"], now it just shows Lyrics By [Choralweise(...)

gaga789
there's an issue with the new form

I'm editing a release were some artists PAN are written with "..." like him : Gimel "Young Guru" Keaton

When I click to the preview I've got warnings telling me that Gimel is a new artist, it is ignoring everything after the 1st "

Thanks for the reports folks. Looks like we have a quote bug. The developer is on it now.

gaga789
should I ignore that?

No, please wait until we fix it, thanks!

schachmatt
Did that, still looks kinda strange...

Yeh, the front end developers will look for examples like this and I'm sure they will consider if it can be rendered in a different way. Or maybe we just need to get used to it :-)

The data you entered is correct anyway, so changing the display is easy.

nik
Thanks for the reports folks. Looks like we have a quote bug.

Fix should be deployed, please try again and let us know if this is now resolved!

nik
Yeh, the front end developers will look for examples like this and I'm sure they will consider if it can be rendered in a different way. Or maybe we just need to get used to it :-)

I'll just echo what nik said here, the display of the tracklist on release pages (and other areas of the site) will likely change over the next few months. The current method of indenting sub-tracks is not ideal and will be deprecated when we have the time to devote to a better long-term solution.

Use an "Index Track" whenever

nik
Use an "Index Track" whenever the Index Track Title is the title .....

Please add additional third example for this chapter ↑ ↑ , an example with the end of Index track (as example of function: Make End of Index Track)

1) Could it be that the examples in http://discogs.versitio.com/help/database/submission-guidelines-release-trk#Index_Tracks_And_Headings are reversed?
The examples in RSG §12.13.1. – which talks primarily about "Index Tracks" – are Headings, while examples in RSG §12.13.2. which talks about "Headings" are Index Tracks.

2) Could it be that timings from former index tracks got lost in transition to Headings?
If so, that would be Quite A Bad Thing™… :/

loukash
Could it be that timings from former index tracks got lost in transition to Headings?

i noticed that ^^^ as well.
:-/

jcrosen
Fix should be deployed, please try again and let us know if this is now resolved

Seems OK now, thanks !

loukash
Could it be that the examples in http://discogs.versitio.com/help/database/submission-guidelines-release-trk#Index_Tracks_And_Headings are reversed?

I don't think so.
Hmm, maybe I saw just the fixed examples? :-)

I may be wrong, but I think now the examples are really reversed.

Nik, the old guidelines are still there? at the end of this site --> RSG §12.13.1

loukash
the examples in http://discogs.versitio.com/help/database/submission-guidelines-release-trk#Index_Tracks_And_Headings are reversed

Thanks, I have fixed that!

loukash
timings from former index tracks got lost in transition to Headings

That's an oversight on my part. We are looking into it now.

nice update!

DonHergeFan
Nik, the old guidelines are still there? at the end of this site --> RSG §12.13.1

Fixed, thanks.

DonHergeFan
I may be wrong, but I think now the examples are really reversed.

They are the right way round now.

nik
Yeh, it needs to be:

1.i
1.ii
1.iii

It should go:

1. Timeless
[credits]
1.i Inner City Life
1.ii Pressure
1.iii Jah

or

Timeless <- title bolded
[credits]
[indent, with arrow] 1.i Inner City Life
[indent, with arrow] 1.ii Pressure
[indent, with arrow] 1.iii Jah

Tokeowave
It should go:

1. Timeless
[credits]
1.i Inner City Life
1.ii Pressure
1.iii Jah

We considered track positions for Index Tracks, but it is problematical (see previous threads)

Tokeowave
or

Timeless <- title bolded
[credits]
[indent, with arrow] 1.i Inner City Life
[indent, with arrow] 1.ii Pressure
[indent, with arrow] 1.iii Jah

The display can be altered in time, thanks!

I'm trying to remove all of the Headings on this release and change to Index Tracks, but after removing a couple of Headings it has stopped working. After clicking 'Remove Heading' the page just dims and nothing happens until you click the screen again and it goes back to normal.

Profoundemonium
I'm trying to remove all of the Headings on this release and change to Index Tracks, but after removing a couple of Headings it has stopped working. After clicking 'Remove Heading' the page just dims and nothing happens until you click the screen again and it goes back to normal.

It may be a temporary thing. Can you try again? it is working ok here.

In general the new submission form seems ssslllloooowwww. (Safari 6, OS 10.8.5)

I keep getting 'Unresponsive Script' errors in Firefox. I've set its priority to high in the Windows Task Manager and it's working okay so far, albeit extremely slow. It works a lot better with smaller submissions.

Profoundemonium
I'm trying to remove all of the Headings on this release and change to Index Tracks, but after removing a couple of Headings it has stopped working. After clicking 'Remove Heading' the page just dims and nothing happens until you click the screen again and it goes back to normal.

loukash
In general the new submission form seems ssslllloooowwww. (Safari 6, OS 10.8.5)

Larger releases are known to perform slowly (as they did in the previous iteration for different reasons) due to the amount of stuff on the page and the amount of stuff we need to "re-render" when performing any kind of "destructive" operation within the tracklist. We had planned to spend some time further optimizing the form where necessary after deploying so we appreciate the reports. Linking to a sample release that runs slowly for you (as Profoundemonium did) will help us do some relative benchmarking.

Also including some basic specs for your computer (RAM, U, OS version, Browser version) if you're experiencing failures or extremely poor performance will help us identify what hardware specs to attempt mimicking as we test any optimizations.

Thanks again for the !

So what should I use for a DVD release where 1 track (video) has different scenes?
Example: Bryan Ferry - Live In Lyon
Should "Live In Lyon" be an Index Track here?
As I see it: Track DVD-1 is the complete live performance (one file on the DVD),
So track DVD-1.1, DVD-1.2, DVD-1.3 etc... are part the Live In Lyon performance, they are scenes of one file.

jcrosen
Larger releases are known to perform slowly (as they did in the previous iteration for different reasons)

jcrosen
Linking to a sample release that runs slowly for you (as Profoundemonium did) will help us do some relative benchmarking.

Alexej Fried, Gustav Brom Orchestra - Solstice / Moravian Wedding
Not really something I'd call a "large release"… ;)

jcrosen
some basic specs for your computer (RAM, U, OS version, Browser version)

MacBookPro9,1, 2.6 GHz Intel Core i7, 16 GB RAM, OS 10.8.5, Safari 6.0.5
Not really "antique" hardware either.
I don't browse Teh Intervebz™ all that much anymore apart from Discogs, but discogs.versitio.com is generally one of the slowest sites out there.

This is an interesting case I've just edited to test these new functions: http://discogs.versitio.com/release/904527
It contains Headers, Index Tracks, tracks alone, all spread on 2 CDs.

1/ it was quit easy to move some headers onto index tracks: add IT, move titles, then remove the old header.
2/ when trying to submit, I had warnings saying an IT must have sub-tracks. I realized I had also to click on the right arrow of the last track of an IT to select the option: " Make End of Index Track". Then only now it's ok to Save the edit. I didn't know that trick.
3/ I'm annoying with timings for IT which appear between parenthesis: (0:00). Seems very weird no?
4/ I also removed the blank track '-' after track 1-6d. I think this is no longer necessary with this new Header/Index Track structure. Am I right?

Comments are welcome.
Thank you.

valparaiso
4/ I also removed the blank track '-' after track 1-6d. I think this is no longer necessary with this new Header/Index Track structure. Am I right?

Not sure here, as it would be perfectly possible for Index Tracks to fall under a heading.
Right now it looks like Mark Of The Hole (Heading) is from track 1-1 to 1-6d, or is it supposed to be this way?

Luigi499
Right now it looks like Mark Of The Hole (Heading) is from track 1-1 to 1-6d, or is it supposed to be this way?

Yes, this is right. This double CD gathered an album ("Mark Of The Mole") on CD1, and an EP ("Intermission") on CD2. The 'Mole' album ends at track 1-6d. IMO the '-' is no longer necessary as CD2 opens with a new header for the EP 'Intermission'.
Of course I know that, but is this obvious for everyone?

Just finished updating this release. Had to do it in two steps: The first time the 'Remove Index Track' stopped responding like previously mentioned (dimmed page with no 'Cancel / Okay' box appearing), so the only way I could finish the edit without starting over was to link the un-removable Index Tracks to the track below it and submit, then go back and remove them. Hope everything is correct now.

Also here's a screenshot of my specs.

Liking the new form. Cheers.

I did try the new functionality on a few releases, e.g.:
Influence (Hits, Singles, Moments, Treasures…)

Overall I'm very happy with this new distinction between Headings and Index Tracks.
And the updated template and tools are easy to use.

I see room for improvement in:
1.removing the brackets from the Index Tracks durations; rather unnecessary...
2.adding an Artist Name field for the Headings. This would make sense in cases like this box set I recently submitted: Music For Films / Apollo (Atmospheres & Soundtracks) / Thursday Afternoon / More Music For Films / The Pearl

valparaiso
Yes, this is right. This double CD gathered an album ("Mark Of The Mole") on CD1, and an EP ("Intermission") on CD2. The 'Mole' album ends at track 1-6d. IMO the '-' is no longer necessary as CD2 opens with a new header for the EP 'Intermission'.
Of course I know that, but is this obvious for everyone?

It is obvious to me, but looking at the submission from before your edit the '-' looked to me like it was the end of the Heading (old Index Track) 'Final Confrontation' (hence my question about it).

Profoundemonium
Just finished updating this release.

Good job, it looks very great with this new feature.
I wonder if one day we will be able to show/hide these sub-tracks as we can do currently with track's credits. In a case such as this one, it could be interesting to get an overlook of the general structure (Headings and IT only) of huge releases.

OK, when the change happened, my Index Tracks automatically became Headings. So I edited this sub for practice.

Did I do it right?

The United States Air Force Band Of The Golden Gate* - The United States Air Force Band Of The Golden Gate

loukash
Alexej Fried, Gustav Brom Orchestra - Solstice / Moravian Wedding
Not really something I'd call a "large release"… ;)

You're right, that's a rather short tracklist. However, I don't notice any performance issues when interacting with the tracklist or the rest of the form. What kind of actions are you performing when you encounter slowness or delays? Or is it the loading of the page and/or javascript components that feels slow?

Profoundemonium
Just finished updating this release.

Great work, that's a large tracklist; I also experience some serious slowness when interacting with the form. I'll use this as a reference point when testing some optimizations we have planned. I wasn't able to get it to lock up with the "Remove ..." action on any of the track rows though, so I wanted to ask if you could explain more specifically what kind of actions you performed that led to the timeouts? Roughly how many times did you remove or insert a track before it stopped responding? Thanks for the detail!

loukash
Could it be that timings from former index tracks got lost in transition to Headings?

nik
We are looking into it now.

Forgot to update everyone on this topic. The conversion doesn't actually take place until a release is edited so we haven't lost the durations for any of the previous "meta"/"old index" tracks because we haven't actually converted anything except those releases that are newly edited or submitted. So for now we've enabled the display of durations on any "meta"/"heading" tracks if it previously existed. This is available on both the release and submission pages.

Hope that addresses the concerns and doesn't present too much confusion!

I was unable to insert track listing and delete other track listings. See Draft 5415323.

How many drafts am I going to have to save before this issue is fixed.

Thanks.

Dmitrirex

jcrosen
so I wanted to ask if you could explain more specifically what kind of actions you performed that led to the timeouts?

I just tried going back to the form and removing all of the index tracks up to disc 4 and then went back to disc 1 and started putting them in, I got this unresponsive script error when I created the second index track. If I click continue, then the error will appear again after adding about 5 more index tracks. If I click stop script, then I return to the top of the submission form. After the error appearing a few more times the confirmation box for removing index title or header no longer appears.

Edit:
Nevermind, seems to be a browser issue.

What an awesome update! I love these changes, it makes it much easier to enter classical music releases with multiple movements! Great job guys!
Edit:
Ok, so I just tried out the new submission form on this: Polish-American String Band - Polish-American String Band Plays Favorite Tunes Of Word War I
I changed the medleys to index tracks and changed all the tracks in each medley to a "sub track." Other than having to manually switch each track under the index track by copying and pasting, this looks better visually and easier to understand which tracks belong to each musical work! It was a little slow-going having to click "ok" every time I deleted a track that I had changed to a sub-track though...
So, are "index track separators" not being used anymore? Side 2 of the the above record is listed as a "medley," but gives individual track times and the tracks are actually separated. Wondering if I should use a "heading separator" here?

One more edit:
Just updated this as well: Schumann*, Southwest German Radio Orchestra, Baden, Baden*, Edouard Van Remoortel - Symphony No. 3 'Rhenish' & No. 4
This new update seems to work especially well for classical pieces such as symphonies, concertos, and other multi-movement pieces. It is nice to be able to list the performer on multiple tracks only once with the index tracks (as opposed to having to list it for each individual track in the musical work). I like this update!

The form definitely works well. I agree with Genesis - Foxtrot. I just have a lot of subs over the last six years or so. Oh well...

New subs are about the same as before. The new features will solve the past issues with submissions where we thought we needed nested index tracks. Usually it will be header + index track(s) with the new form and the results should be more accurate and easier to read. I like this.

You guys didn't fix any RTL display issues while you were at it, did you? (Friendly reminder.)

This is one of the old guidelines:
12.13.2. To separate subsequent tracks which are not part of the Index Track, it is necessary to add a blank Index Track containing a single dash (-) after the last track in the group.

We still need some form of this for Headings.
Please see this example: http://discogs.versitio.com/Tenacious-D-The-Complete-Master-Works-2/release/4893997
And this image: http://s.pixogs.com/image/R-4893997-1382312392-1005.jpeg

All of disc 1 falls underneath one (or two (or three if you count "DISC 1")) heading(s).
But the first track of disc 2 has no heading on the release, except for "DISC 2"
Then the second and subsequent tracks on disc 2 are after a new heading, "EXTRAS:".

Mobile display issue:
Longer track positions under index tracks run into track titles. See image:
http://i58.tinypic.com/2z89tz4.png

Editing headings / index tracks and moving tracks does not seem to work on iOS at all. Could that be? It would be a pretty serious push back.

Would it be possible to render index tracks in bold type, as it is done with headings?
I think index tracks get a bit 'lost' in some cases, like here:
Bartók*, Ravel*, Julius Katchen, London Symphony*, Istvan Kertesz* - Piano Concerto No. 3 / Piano Concerto In G Major

Liking the changes so far, although, as always, it will take some getting used to visually :)

Question:
What do we do with sub-tracks within sub-tracks?

see: Joshua Rifkin - The Baroque Beatles Book

A1 and A4 are subtracks within "The Royale Beatleworks Musicke, MBE 1963"
(same with B4.2)

Phonographic publication year (P) field be very useful for release and / or track level, as this frequently differs from release date, possibly followed by a Company field.

Good idea, kind of - but I'm not sure about the grey bars.
Would have looked much better if sub-indexes were indented and smaller, either that or tracks were bold and sub-tracks not bold, thus clearly distinguishing them from tracks. How it is now a newcomer won't understand.

Take a look at A Tent - Six Empty Places - although updated correctly - it looks weird.
At first glance it seems as though the whole album is a suite called "Seven Years"
If the...
A1 Part 1 (No Thought)
A2 Part 2 (Abundance)
were both indented as the credit in the track below: Drums – Mike Richardson - and in a smaller font like this, it would look much better, and no need for the grey bars

I can imagine many a confused newcomer to Discogs scratching their head and wondering what's what - how it is with this update!

I have encountered a little bug on the new input page while editing writers credits on Vol. 2.

Removing a line from the top of the credits in Tracklist appears to leave an empty credits line.

As I had initially used Written By on the first line of the credits and then Written-By on the second and third lines, when, after linking the credits on the second and third, I went to remove the first line (using the 'x' on the right of the ), the resulting display gave an undesired dash on the first line of the credits.
This only disappeared when I created a new Track, copied all the data and removed the old one.

Great update, but some guidance is still needed about how to separate tracks from a heading-grouped track(s). In the following example I have used a dashed but otherwise empty heading track, would that be the way to go? Planxty - Cold Blow And The Rainy Night

Luigi499
So what should I use for a DVD release where 1 track (video) has different scenes?
Example: Bryan Ferry - Live In Lyon
Should "Live In Lyon" be an Index Track here?

No. The first tracks name, for example, is not "Live In Lyon (I Put A Spell On You)"

valparaiso
3/ I'm annoying with timings for IT which appear between parenthesis: (0:00). Seems very weird no?

It is just a display method. It can easily be changed depending on your .

valparaiso
4/ I also removed the blank track '-' after track 1-6d. I think this is no longer necessary with this new Header/Index Track structure. Am I right?

valparaiso
This double CD gathered an album ("Mark Of The Mole") on CD1, and an EP ("Intermission") on CD2. The 'Mole' album ends at track 1-6d. IMO the '-' is no longer necessary as CD2 opens with a new header for the EP 'Intermission'.
Of course I know that, but is this obvious for everyone?

Yes, this way is fine now.

Profoundemonium
Just finished updating this release Mozart*, Beethoven* - Alfred Brendel - The Legendary Mozart & Beethoven Recordings

Looks great. The only thing I am wondering about are tracks like:

19-4 - 5 Variations On 'Rule Britannia' In D WoO 79

That is a legitimate name for a track composed by Ludwig van Beethoven, right?.

bertielego
2.adding an Artist Name field for the Headings. This would make sense in cases like this box set I recently submitted: Music For Films / Apollo (Atmospheres & Soundtracks) / Thursday Afternoon / More Music For Films / The Pearl

Interesting example. We are going to look more at how the whole 'Main Artist' thing works, and may make updates based on examples and . Thanks!

bertielego
I did try the new functionality on a few releases, e.g.:

Mike Oldfield - Music For The Opening Ceremony Of The London 2012 Olympic Games

Sorry bertielego, headings were correct for this, not Index Track. The title for the first track is not "Music For The Opening Ceremony Of The London 2012 Olympic Games (Tubular Bells {Part One Excerpt})". Please see the guidelines at http://discogs.versitio.com/help/database/submission-guidelines-release-trk#Index_Tracks_And_Headings

Your other examples look fine.

tsivihcra
OK, when the change happened, my Index Tracks automatically became Headings. So I edited this sub for practice.

Did I do it right?

The United States Air Force Band Of The Golden Gate* - The United States Air Force Band Of The Golden Gate

No, I don't think so. For example, I don't believe the full title for A4.1 is:

"Suite Of Old American Dances (Cakewalk)".

It should just be "Cakewalk".

Ktrump5
Ok, so I just tried out the new submission form on this Polish-American String Band - Polish-American String Band Plays Favorite Tunes Of Word War I

Sorry, as above, that is not the correct use of the new Index Tracks.

Ktrump5
having to manually switch each track under the index track by copying and pasting

You don't need to do that, just go to the last track and select "Make End Of Index Track".

Ktrump5
One more edit:
Just updated this as well: Schumann*, Southwest German Radio Orchestra, Baden, Baden*, Edouard Van Remoortel - Symphony No. 3 'Rhenish' & No. 4
This new update seems to work especially well for classical pieces such as symphonies, concertos, and other multi-movement pieces. It is nice to be able to list the performer on multiple tracks only once with the index tracks (as opposed to having to list it for each individual track in the musical work). I like this update!

Great, that is the correct way to use the new Index Tracks!

progcode
This is one of the old guidelines:
12.13.2. To separate subsequent tracks which are not part of the Index Track, it is necessary to add a blank Index Track containing a single dash (-) after the last track in the group.

We still need some form of this for Headings.

Yes you are right, I'll update that in the guidelines, thanks!

aasaxell
Question:
What do we do with sub-tracks within sub-tracks?

see: Joshua Rifkin - The Baroque Beatles Book

A1 and A4 are subtracks within "The Royale Beatleworks Musicke, MBE 1963"
(same with B4.2)

I don't know what to do with that release at all!

We have to think carefully. For example, did Lennon-McCartney write an album called "The Baroque Beatles Book"? Did they write a track called "The Royale Beatleworks Musicke, MBE 1963 Ouverture: (I Want To Hold Your Hand)"?

This probably needs discussed in a separate thread...

meet problems with index tracks and sub-index tracks on Satie* - Debussy* - Ravel* - La Nouvelle Vague:
The composition "Trois Morceaux En Forme De Poire, Pour Piano À Quatre Mains" is an ensemble of 7 sub tracks (yes, Trois=3 but this Erik Satie's music) cut like that:
a) Manière De Commencement
b) Prolongation Du Même : " Au Pas "
c)
I : " Lentement "
II : "Enlevé' - "De Moitié" - "1er Temps"
III: "Brutal" - "Comme Une Bête" - "Au Temps"
d) En Plus : "Calme"
e) Redite : "Dans Le Lent"

"c)" is heading or index ? (can't be submitted like that, I had to add a fictional/unnumbered track for "c)")

nik
Please let me know if you have any ideas for improvements, or if anything is unclear or badly worded etc.

Specifying in the guidelines the location of the buttons for "Insert Index/Heading" would be a good thing. As I tried to check the new form for the first time, I was so much concentrated looking at the arrows on the left side - where the old "insert index" was to be found before - and irritated by the fact that I couldn't grab anything that I did NOT see at all that everything was moved to the right side! Why this side shift btw? Having in mind that people get used to their working habits, it would have been smarter to keep them where they were and place the move track feature on the right side, instead of making a double change! The grey arrow would also be imo more visible (for new s) and attract more attention if it was coloured (red) or in bold (like for the move track feature, which could have been left in grey; learning to memorize something new is always easier and faster than changing a habit!!).

Tarantxon
I have encountered a little bug on the new input page while editing writers credits on Charlie Parker Vol. 2.

Removing a line from the top of the credits in Tracklist appears to leave an empty credits line.

Thanks, I have added that as a bug called ""Written By" credit causes dash on new submission form".

TwinPowerForce
"Trois Morceaux En Forme De Poire, Pour Piano À Quatre Mains" is an ensemble of 7 sub tracks (yes, Trois=3 but this Erik Satie's music) cut like that:
a) Manière De Commencement
b) Prolongation Du Même : " Au Pas "
c)
I : " Lentement "
II : "Enlevé' - "De Moitié" - "1er Temps"
III: "Brutal" - "Comme Une Bête" - "Au Temps"
d) En Plus : "Calme"
e) Redite : "Dans Le Lent"

"c)" is heading or index ? (can't be submitted like that, I had to add a fictional/unnumbered track for "c)")

I don't understand the structure of that work. What is the full track title for ci? Is it:

Trois Morceaux En Forme De Poire, Pour Piano À Quatre Mains (Prolongation Du Même : " Au Pas " ("Lentement"))

Or is it just:

Trois Morceaux En Forme De Poire, Pour Piano À Quatre Mains ("Lentement")?

nik
It shouldn't take too long to do manually

Explain this to sellers who have typed hundreds or thousands of entries through time. I would personally NEVER have time for this, don't ask the impossible! I already use many many hours of work on Discogs per day and every day brings new inputs to do, so going back to years of work? Not possible!

Piotrlerouge - no one is required to go back and edit their submissions, it is only if you want to. Also, we will look into a semi-automatic feature to convert a release with one click. Thanks!

nik
I don't understand the structure of that work. What is the full track title for ci? Is it:

Trois Morceaux En Forme De Poire, Pour Piano À Quatre Mains (Prolongation Du Même : " Au Pas " ("Lentement"))

Or is it just:

Trois Morceaux En Forme De Poire, Pour Piano À Quatre Mains ("Lentement")?

the name of the composition is "Trois Morceaux En Forme De Poire, Pour Piano À Quatre Mains"
subtracks are:
a) Manière De Commencement
b) Prolongation Du Même : " Au Pas "
[c)]-I : " Lentement "
[c)]-II : "Enlevé' - "De Moitié" - "1er Temps"
[c)]-III: "Brutal" - "Comme Une Bête" - "Au Temps"
d) En Plus : "Calme"
e) Redite : "Dans Le Lent"

"Lentement" (rather "I : "Lentement" ") is the name of the 4th sub-track (Satie's compositions aren't logic, the influence of Dadaism), so according to your question, title is: "Trois Morceaux En Forme De Poire, Pour Piano À Quatre Mains [: c)I-] ("Lentement")" (like Symphony, 3rd mvt, 2nd part [of the third mvt) (yes, very hard/confuse to understand)

"I: Lentement" is the first part of c) (which is the third part of "Trois Morceaux En Forme De Poire, Pour Piano À Quatre Mains")

That's help ?

How does this look?
- http://s12.postimg.org/eg6tu2431/Sem_T_tulo.png
- http://s.pixogs.com/image/R-383010-1232893360.jpeg

From Manowar - The Triumph Of Steel

nik
Looks great. The only thing I am wondering about are tracks like:

19-4 - 5 Variations On 'Rule Britannia' In D WoO 79

That is a legitimate name for a track composed by Ludwig van Beethoven, right?

It means 'Werke ohne Opuszahl' (works without opus number). They are presented that way on other releases such as:
The 5 Piano Concertos / Choral Fantasy

Here's some more info: WoO (Beethoven)

Font size is ridiculously big in the updated submission form. Also, the field placings could be more economical.

jopla2
Font size is ridiculously big in the updated submission form. Also, the field placings could be more economical.

Yes, smaller fonts please.

About Music For The Opening Ceremony Of The London 2012 Olympic Games...

nik

Sorry bertielego, headings were correct for this, not Index Track. The title for the first track is not "Music For The Opening Ceremony Of The London 2012 Olympic Games (Tubular Bells {Part One Excerpt})". Please see the guidelines at http://discogs.versitio.com/help/database/submission-guidelines-release-trk#Index_Tracks_And_Headings

Music For The Opening Ceremony Of The London 2012 Olympic Games' is a track on his own right, see track 1-5 here: http://discogs.versitio.com/Various-Isles-Of-Wonder-Music-For-The-Opening-Ceremony-Of-The-London-2012-Olympic-Games/release/3784799

It is a continuous piece of music Mike Oldfield adapted and recorded for the occasion, it is made of eight parts / subtracks. So I don't see why the Index Track wouldn't apply...

I'm having slight visual issues with the rendering of the index track titles, especially when track artists are added to the index tracks. The visuals are unclear when the track artists are spread over more than one line.
Here's an example:
Walton*, Bloch*, Piatigorsky*, Boston Symphony* ∙ Munch* - Cello Concerto / Schelomo

This is how it looks like on my screen:
http://www.klapauzius.net/Misc/Track_artists_display_issue.png
Please notice that track artists and index track title are not separated because the track artists in the first line are alligned with the dash separator (-) instead of being alligned further to the left. Also having the same font size and style for track artists and track title doesn't help.

Here's a little mockup which I think would look much better:
http://www.klapauzius.net/Misc/Track_artists_display_mockup.png
- Bold style for index track title
- Track artists alligned right, with the dash separator in a separate column
- Having a darker line for the last sub track in the index track would also help to better visually separate the sub tracks from the next (non-index) track.

Thanks in advance for considering this (?). :-)

bertielego
It is a continuous piece of music Mike Oldfield adapted and recorded for the occasion, it is made of eight parts / subtracks. So I don't see why the Index Track wouldn't apply...

Yes, I have to agree with Mr. bertielego.

How should releases which have a single work divided in movements be handled?

For example, can the symphony names be added as index tracks to the following, with the movements as sub-tracks:

Branca* - The World Upside Down

Edit: also, for display and tracks purposes, I think presenting titles as "Index Track - Sub-Track" or "Index Track: Sub-Track" would be better than "Index Track (Sub-Track)".

I'm not keen on the 'are you sure you want to remove this track?' warning, I don't think that was there before was it? If not that's 2 x extra clicks per submission, (and since I already do about 3600 clicks every day I can do without any extra).

nik
Can you give us an example?

I've just updated this submission: Booty Luv - Dance Dance (see also images).
I hope this is the correct way of adding a medley/megamix? If it's correct, I would suggest adding a track number field to the index track. Now it doesn't say the megamix is track 3 namely.

The new submission form works nice, however it will be better if the font size is as big as on release pages (which look really good now).

http://discogs.versitio.com/Gladsaxe-Pigegarde-Gladsaxe-Pigegarde/release/5416706
on that i added an index track because it's a medley.
the medley doesn't have a title.

should i just leave the sub-tracks under the header & delete the index track ?
(is it ok to have sub-track under a header without an index track?)

other things i should change there ?

Ivo94
I hope this is the correct way of adding a medley/megamix? If it's correct, I would suggest adding a track number field to the index track. Now it doesn't say the megamix is track 3 namely.

Index tracks always refer to the next coming (track) line(s) so on your example, it is pretty obvious that the track concerned is track 3; it can't be any other! A track number field to the index track would be imo redundant and say the same twice. Not having a track number allows to easily separate index from real tracks.

On a release like The Legendary Mozart & Beethoven Recordings, is it allowed to move credits to index tracks? On scans they are listed on every CD attached to every work. Not as whole in a list. Moving them to index tracks would make credits much clearer especially that you don't have to scroll for every credit.

the edit/submission form looks pretty bloated in this new layout

An issue with the new index tracks: when tracks are changed to sub-tracks, their durations are no longer counted by the system for release classification purposes.

Example: Eastern European Piano Music is over 60 minutes in length but since the last edit it is classed in miscellaneous as the first two tracks are less than 45 minutes.

Edit: it looks like sub-tracks are also not counting as tracks. Miserere has 17 tracks and is also sorted in miscellaneous.

jopla2
Font size is ridiculously big in the updated submission form. Also, the field placings could be more economical.

Seems to be the new thing on Discogs. After having it right and looking good for over 10 years. :) Methinks Discogs programmers are either going myopic, or it's all a BIG mistake. As usual, no response to my comments and suggestions above.

seppuku
An issue with the new index tracks: when tracks are changed to sub-tracks, their durations are no longer counted by the system for release classification purposes.

I usually add the album tag, as the Discogs automatic system just doesn't work right. As anyone that's been buying records as long as I have knows that an album can be as short as 24 minutes!

seppuku
An issue with the new index tracks: when tracks are changed to sub-tracks, their durations are no longer counted by the system for release classification purposes.

Example: Eastern European Piano Music is over 60 minutes in length but since the last edit it is classed in miscellaneous as the first two tracks are less than 45 minutes.

Edit: it looks like sub-tracks are also not counting as tracks. Miserere has 17 tracks and is also sorted in miscellaneous.

Also, it seems credits added to sub-tracks do not appear on artist profiles. See Booty Luv - Dance Dance and click on one of the sub-track credits: the artist profiles do not show the release at all (or they only show credits for the other tracks).

Ivo94
it seems credits added to sub-tracks do not appear on artist profiles. See Booty Luv - Dance Dance and click on one of the sub-track credits: the artist profiles do not show the release at all (or they only show credits for the other tracks).

Crikey. The release doesn't even appear in the pending submissions for any of the sub-track-only artists. Georgs Pelēcis' page.

EricLanzillotta
the edit/submission form looks pretty bloated in this new layout

Couldn't agree more Eric, and you should know better than most having contributed to Discogs since the early days. It all makes copying from one box on the form to another much more difficult. Way too much empty space if you ask me. Sure the beta form didn't look like this. One slight improvement is that the Role box is now slightly bigger - but is still way too short for any serious typing. One thing that's always bugged me.

seppuku
An issue with the new index tracks: when tracks are changed to sub-tracks, their durations are no longer counted by the system for release classification purposes.

Example: Eastern European Piano Music is over 60 minutes in length but since the last edit it is classed in miscellaneous as the first two tracks are less than 45 minutes.

Edit: it looks like sub-tracks are also not counting as tracks. Miserere has 17 tracks and is also sorted in miscellaneous.

Ivo94
Also, it seems credits added to sub-tracks do not appear on artist profiles. See Booty Luv - Dance Dance and click on one of the sub-track credits: the artist profiles do not show the release at all (or they only show credits for the other tracks).

These are things that management and the developers absolutely need to look at.
Track durations from sub-tracks obviously should absolutely count for the total time of a release, and if that total playing time is important for the section it appears in (which has always been on Discogs) it is much more than only a 'display issue'.

Even more problematic IMO is the fact that credits from sub-tracks do not appear on artist profiles.
This way of linking everything to all artist- and company-pages is one of the core things of Discogs, and is the reason why Discogs is so helpfull for collectors of certain artists.
If a linked credit is not linked, then why even bother to use it ????

seppuku
An issue with the new index tracks: when tracks are changed to sub-tracks, their durations are no longer counted by the system for release classification purposes.

Example: Eastern European Piano Music is over 60 minutes in length but since the last edit it is classed in miscellaneous as the first two tracks are less than 45 minutes.

Edit: it looks like sub-tracks are also not counting as tracks. Miserere has 17 tracks and is also sorted in miscellaneous.

IMHO, release classification shouldn't be automated, but manual.

The submission form should include one more drop down menu, one to allow the submitter/contributor to select in which category the release should belong to: 'Albums', 'Singles & EPs', Compilations', Videos', 'Miscellaneous', etc.

When a Master Release gets created, such drop down menu should get disactivated in the submission forms of the releases belonging to the MR. The drop down menu would be available in the MR editing form instead, for s to decide to which caegory the MR should belong to.

(I know this is a bit off-topic...)

seppuku
An issue with the new index tracks: when tracks are changed to sub-tracks, their durations are no longer counted by the system for release classification purposes.

Example: Eastern European Piano Music is over 60 minutes in length but since the last edit it is classed in miscellaneous as the first two tracks are less than 45 minutes.

Edit: it looks like sub-tracks are also not counting as tracks. Miserere has 17 tracks and is also sorted in miscellaneous.

Thanks, I've filed a bug and we'll look into it.

Ivo94
Also, it seems credits added to sub-tracks do not appear on artist profiles. See Booty Luv - Dance Dance and click on one of the sub-track credits: the artist profiles do not show the release at all (or they only show credits for the other tracks).

That's a high priority bug; will post back here with an update soon.

The automatic conversion of Index Track data to Header data has a massive impact on the classical music listings in Discogs, where I'd bet 85-90% of the listings already had Index Track data that was correct as Index Track data. It will all need to be moved back.

Looks like I won't be adding anything classical until the dust settles.

jcrosen
Thanks, I've filed a bug and we'll look into it ... That's a high priority bug; will post back here with an update soon.

To provide an update I have a potential fix for both of these issues but I don't want to roll it out without review and cause more problems than it solves inadvertantly. Once the fix has been deployed I'll script a manual credit re-index for any releases affected since the bug was introduced.

I am aiming to have the issue 100% resolved within the next 24 hours and will report back here on any relevant progress.

Thanks for the reports and your patience!